Since we're into the leagalese.....

[Bill Ray]

Say I create a website for a client. They pay for their hosting and I build
the site on their host in sort of a "good faith" gesture.

Now let's say that this friendship that once was turns sour and the guy
refuses to follow through on his end of the payment arrangements. Can I
retract all my files from the server that he paid for?

Also, in the contract I specified that "upon final payment all site files
become property of the client". Does this include all my .png graphic files
that allow editability of the image maps that make up a significant portion
of his site? In other words, the .png files could be compared in a
photographic sense to being the "negatives", which I know most all
photographers retain. (My family is a comprised mostly of
photographers....I'm the black sheep, LOL)

Any/all thoughts appreciated.

BR

[E. T. Culling]

Interesting. I have a non-paying client too.... Can I threaten to 'disable'
his site?
I've only been paid about a third of the total.
Eleanor
"Bill Ray" <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
news:bg130d$fh7$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Say I create a website for a client. They pay for their hosting and I

build

> the site on their host in sort of a "good faith" gesture.
>
> Now let's say that this friendship that once was turns sour and the guy
> refuses to follow through on his end of the payment arrangements. Can I
> retract all my files from the server that he paid for?
>
> Also, in the contract I specified that "upon final payment all site files
> become property of the client". Does this include all my .png graphic

files

> that allow editability of the image maps that make up a significant

portion

> of his site? In other words, the .png files could be compared in a
> photographic sense to being the "negatives", which I know most all
> photographers retain. (My family is a comprised mostly of
> photographers....I'm the black sheep, LOL)
>
> Any/all thoughts appreciated.
>
> BR
>
>
>

[robe]

....I had a similar situation last year with a guy I'd built another 3 sites
for, to add to his 1 before I came along.
At some point he slowed down in paying, but as ever I'm still working away
at whatever he wanted updated. It got to a point I disabled the index pages
to all four, and waited.
Within hours that night the guy had called his ISP, he'd called the police,
and wanted a full report from all concerned as to what had happened.
I put it down to an error on my part, and had fixed the situation promptly.
My wholly emotional reaction to his non-payment via this method was the most
stressful event I've ever gone thru'. But of course I hadn't warned him, I
just did it. It felt good, but wasn't very productive. Our relationship went
majorly downhill from then, and he still owes.
It was one of those experiences when you think, how on earth did I get
here...?
It turns out the guy was a bit of a sheister with most of suppliers. He has
been taken to court, which is no guarantee that you'd get any money back at
all, it just means he has another black mark against his name.

No-one knows all the ins and outs, but technically you're damaging someone's
property whether you think you had right to or not.
....just an embarassing incident I though I'd share...

As far what the client owns is concerned, they're paying for the product you
provide, not how it got there, (like the negatives idea) If you had a psd
for example, that could be used to produce variations etc which I'm not sure
could be described as the client's property. I tend to think initially you
should say the site files / the product is what you've paid for.

Depending on your relationship with the client, that could easily change,
but I don't think it's a bad starting point.

bit of a ramble...

robe





"E. T. Culling" <etcetc@notatcrcwnet.com> wrote in message
news:bg15af$i8l$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Interesting. I have a non-paying client too.... Can I threaten to

'disable'

> his site?
> I've only been paid about a third of the total.
> Eleanor
> "Bill Ray" <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
> news:bg130d$fh7$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> > Say I create a website for a client. They pay for their hosting and I

> build

> > the site on their host in sort of a "good faith" gesture.
> >
> > Now let's say that this friendship that once was turns sour and the guy
> > refuses to follow through on his end of the payment arrangements. Can I
> > retract all my files from the server that he paid for?
> >
> > Also, in the contract I specified that "upon final payment all site

files

> > become property of the client". Does this include all my .png graphic

> files

> > that allow editability of the image maps that make up a significant

> portion

> > of his site? In other words, the .png files could be compared in a
> > photographic sense to being the "negatives", which I know most all
> > photographers retain. (My family is a comprised mostly of
> > photographers....I'm the black sheep, LOL)
> >
> > Any/all thoughts appreciated.
> >
> > BR
> >
> >
> >

>
>

[Kelley Rao]

Hi Bill,

I've learned (the hard way) it's best to build a site out on your own space.
When you get paid, they get their website. But I, too, have a couple of
sites that are on the client's server yet they have not paid the balance
due. I *could* take them down, but then that would further slow the payment
process, since the website is a cash-generating tool...catch 22! I've given
them each 60 days to make good or I will remove them from the server, since
the site, in essesence, belongs to me. Always good to have a contract that
covers all of this (and more). It was worth the investment for me to have
this drawn up. There are some good free or very reasonable sources for
these types of contracts on the Net.

As for ownership of files, for me, I give them everything (PNG files, etc.).
All rights are transferred with the extent of purchased photographs,
copyrighted content, or the like.

--
Kelley Rao, Webeze
[url]www.web-eze.com[/url]



"Bill Ray" <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
news:bg130d$fh7$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Any/all thoughts appreciated.

[Bill Ray]

See, I've heard that removing files gets into Federal violation of laws and
such; personally I don't want that kind of rap to deal with.

SO any legal eagles here care to elaborate?

I'm gonna go post on a law NG and perhaps I can bring the answers back to
this forum, since it's something that we ALL ought to know.

PS- I still own the domain name and have been registering "peripheral"
domains (e.g. imajerk.com, jerkami.com, jerksrus.com, etc....)

AND his whole email system is attached to the domain name so if he doesn't
want to pay, I take my domain name and go home. Otherwise he can buy the
domain name from me for the balance he owes me. :)

BR



"Kelley Rao" <krao@lightsoffweb-eze.com> wrote in message
news:bg186n$lmc$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Hi Bill,
>
> I've learned (the hard way) it's best to build a site out on your own

space.

> When you get paid, they get their website. But I, too, have a couple of
> sites that are on the client's server yet they have not paid the balance
> due. I *could* take them down, but then that would further slow the

payment

> process, since the website is a cash-generating tool...catch 22! I've

given

> them each 60 days to make good or I will remove them from the server,

since

> the site, in essesence, belongs to me. Always good to have a contract that
> covers all of this (and more). It was worth the investment for me to have
> this drawn up. There are some good free or very reasonable sources for
> these types of contracts on the Net.
>
> As for ownership of files, for me, I give them everything (PNG files,

etc.).

> All rights are transferred with the extent of purchased photographs,
> copyrighted content, or the like.
>
> --
> Kelley Rao, Webeze
> [url]www.web-eze.com[/url]
>
>
>
> "Bill Ray" <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
> news:bg130d$fh7$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>

> > Any/all thoughts appreciated.

>
>
>

[Kelley Rao]

Well..the obvious answer is (going forward) don't publish the site to a
client's space until you get paid. It's advice I plan to follow hereafter!

--
Kelley Rao, Webeze
[url]www.web-eze.com[/url]

"Bill Ray" <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
news:bg19rr$nli$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> See, I've heard that removing files gets into Federal violation of laws

and

> such; personally I don't want that kind of rap to deal with.
>
> SO any legal eagles here care to elaborate?
>
> I'm gonna go post on a law NG and perhaps I can bring the answers back to
> this forum, since it's something that we ALL ought to know.
>
> PS- I still own the domain name and have been registering "peripheral"
> domains (e.g. imajerk.com, jerkami.com, jerksrus.com, etc....)
>
> AND his whole email system is attached to the domain name so if he doesn't
> want to pay, I take my domain name and go home. Otherwise he can buy the
> domain name from me for the balance he owes me. :)

[Bill Ray]

Well DUH!!!

This started out as a "friendship" thing but I quickly learned that when
"friends" pay you $2000+ to create a website their "Inner a**hole" can
quickly emerge.

I mean, a friend wouldn't say (In a condescending tone) "Looks like crap,
Billy." (There's nicer ways to express one's disdain for a concept....in his
case, a peroid that is two pixels too close to a letter....(REALLY))

So........Kelley, yer preachin' to the choir here. :)

BR


"Kelley Rao" <krao@lightsoffweb-eze.com> wrote in message
news:bg1aih$ofn$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Well..the obvious answer is (going forward) don't publish the site to a
> client's space until you get paid. It's advice I plan to follow

hereafter!

>
> --
> Kelley Rao, Webeze
> [url]www.web-eze.com[/url]
>
> "Bill Ray" <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
> news:bg19rr$nli$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> > See, I've heard that removing files gets into Federal violation of laws

> and

> > such; personally I don't want that kind of rap to deal with.
> >
> > SO any legal eagles here care to elaborate?
> >
> > I'm gonna go post on a law NG and perhaps I can bring the answers back

to

> > this forum, since it's something that we ALL ought to know.
> >
> > PS- I still own the domain name and have been registering "peripheral"
> > domains (e.g. imajerk.com, jerkami.com, jerksrus.com, etc....)
> >
> > AND his whole email system is attached to the domain name so if he

doesn't

> > want to pay, I take my domain name and go home. Otherwise he can buy the
> > domain name from me for the balance he owes me. :)

>
>

[Art White...MM Dummy]

I have read the replies to this problem and it strikes me that the "client"
dictated the rules...wrong...
If you intend to act like a business do it with some structure.

You decide on your terms and conditions..ensure that are produced in a way
that leaves you with the content UNTIL PAID FOR IN FULL. Why upload them
onto his server. Its like giving your next door neighbour your money to put
in his bank account!

In the UK we have Freeserve.. [url]www.freeserve.com[/url] anytime I need to create a
website for a client I let them access a (my ) freebie website to keep
updated..but each page is left incomplete..and I dont link the pages
properly till I have finished and drawn most if not all that is due.

The main problem is that many "web designers" (including me) do it as a
part time business or to "suppliment" the main income or whatever... so we
don't like seeming to be awkward in case the guy goes elsewhere.
If they want a business web site ..they understand business and business
rules. You set yours so you get paid and if they dont like it and go away so
what...what have you lost..nothing and you gained the time you would have
put to the project.

I don't know the US law.. but there may be an argument for what we in the UK
call ROT..Retention of Title.
All goods are the property of the vendor until invoice is paid in full.
State this on your quote... tell me you wrote a quote!
The you could have retrieved your property....and when Jack Webb called show
him the written quote/ terms and conditions which the guy agreed to by
giving you the work.

Ask some of the established pro guys how they avoid gettinh caught out.


Art




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 18/07/2003

[Bill Ray]

Oh yeah I have a contract. It's a standard agreement that touches on all the
work to be done and what's expected of me. As far as I am concerned, I've
gone WAYYYYYYY above and beyond for this guy.

It seems that I've simply lost control of the situation and will be taking
it back.

BR


"Art White...MM Dummy" <art@NOSPAMwebsites-need-help.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
message news:bg1iau$46k$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> I have read the replies to this problem and it strikes me that the

"client"

> dictated the rules...wrong...
> If you intend to act like a business do it with some structure.
>
> You decide on your terms and conditions..ensure that are produced in a way
> that leaves you with the content UNTIL PAID FOR IN FULL. Why upload them
> onto his server. Its like giving your next door neighbour your money to

put

> in his bank account!
>
> In the UK we have Freeserve.. [url]www.freeserve.com[/url] anytime I need to create

a

> website for a client I let them access a (my ) freebie website to keep
> updated..but each page is left incomplete..and I dont link the pages
> properly till I have finished and drawn most if not all that is due.
>
> The main problem is that many "web designers" (including me) do it as a
> part time business or to "suppliment" the main income or whatever... so we
> don't like seeming to be awkward in case the guy goes elsewhere.
> If they want a business web site ..they understand business and business
> rules. You set yours so you get paid and if they dont like it and go away

so

> what...what have you lost..nothing and you gained the time you would have
> put to the project.
>
> I don't know the US law.. but there may be an argument for what we in the

UK

> call ROT..Retention of Title.
> All goods are the property of the vendor until invoice is paid in full.
> State this on your quote... tell me you wrote a quote!
> The you could have retrieved your property....and when Jack Webb called

show

> him the written quote/ terms and conditions which the guy agreed to by
> giving you the work.
>
> Ask some of the established pro guys how they avoid gettinh caught out.
>
>
> Art
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
> Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 18/07/2003
>
>

[MadWebber]

Steps in dealing with SMOFO's. (Stupid Mother<ahem>kers)

1) Remove all your work from his server. It is legally all YOURS until he
pays in full.

2) When your done his site, he can view it on your server.

3) When, and ONLY when, he pays you in FULL, you upload to his server,
burn a copy on a CD for him and yourself, and destroy whatever is on your
computer to do with his site.

Bonus 4) Keep all source files and don't provide him with any. If it says
nothing in contract about it, he can't do $hit.

My thoughts. :)


"Bill Ray" <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
news:bg130d$fh7$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Say I create a website for a client. They pay for their hosting and I

build

> the site on their host in sort of a "good faith" gesture.
>
> Now let's say that this friendship that once was turns sour and the guy
> refuses to follow through on his end of the payment arrangements. Can I
> retract all my files from the server that he paid for?
>
> Also, in the contract I specified that "upon final payment all site files
> become property of the client". Does this include all my .png graphic

files

> that allow editability of the image maps that make up a significant

portion

> of his site? In other words, the .png files could be compared in a
> photographic sense to being the "negatives", which I know most all
> photographers retain. (My family is a comprised mostly of
> photographers....I'm the black sheep, LOL)
>
> Any/all thoughts appreciated.
>
> BR
>
>
>

[Coen Naninck]

In Holland if you retract the website, you (as designer) are comitting a
crime.

Bill Ray wrote:

> Say I create a website for a client. They pay for their hosting and I build
> the site on their host in sort of a "good faith" gesture.
>
> Now let's say that this friendship that once was turns sour and the guy
> refuses to follow through on his end of the payment arrangements. Can I
> retract all my files from the server that he paid for?
>
> Also, in the contract I specified that "upon final payment all site files
> become property of the client". Does this include all my .png graphic files
> that allow editability of the image maps that make up a significant portion
> of his site? In other words, the .png files could be compared in a
> photographic sense to being the "negatives", which I know most all
> photographers retain. (My family is a comprised mostly of
> photographers....I'm the black sheep, LOL)
>
> Any/all thoughts appreciated.
>
> BR
>
>
>

--
Good luck!

Coen Naninck
_______________________________

Please do not E-mail me with questions about Fireworks issues. Post them
on the Forum instead. All the time I have left to spend in this Forum
can't be contributed to also answering questions outside the Forum. It
just takes too much time and it doesn't help the rest of the world.

Thank you.

E-mail & MSN: [email]ccnk@home.nl[/email]
Corporate: [url]http://www.wetworks.nl[/url]

[Nadia :TWB:]

"Coen Naninck" <ccnk@home.nl> wrote in message
news:3F251C92.20500@home.nl...
| In Holland if you retract the website, you (as designer) are comitting a
| crime.

Coen:

What if you have specified in your contract that the website does not belong
to the client until final payment is made? Would this be because it is on
the clients' server? and not on a testing server.

It's always interesting to read about laws in other countries pertaining to
this type of issue.


Nadia
-----------------------------------------------
PerreLink Design:
Design Templates:Nav Bar Layouts:Web Biz Tools:
[url]http://www.perrelink.com.au/resources/[/url]
-----------------------------------------------
:: Ecommerce & Content Management System::
[url]http://www.yourvirtualstore.net/yvsa4.asp/[/url]
Enter "nadia" into coupon box if buying
and receive a 15% discount !
-----------------------------------------------

[Coen Naninck]

I wouldn't go as far as to state any specific details in law Nadia.
However, if the client has access to the site on its *owned* domain and
payment has not been fulfilled then you may have a potential problem on
your hands. Since deleting content on the server is permitted to only
modify changes to the actual benefit of the contracter. If you purposely
destroy files on the server whom the client has the legal right to, then
that pretty much equals bringing harm to your client, infringing your
service, breaking the law, and/or worse. I even believe you can go to
jail for that.

I did not know about this until my business partner reminded me of some
cases that had gone very bad for some fellow design companies.

Nadia :TWB: wrote:

> "Coen Naninck" <ccnk@home.nl> wrote in message
> news:3F251C92.20500@home.nl...
> | In Holland if you retract the website, you (as designer) are comitting a
> | crime.
>
> Coen:
>
> What if you have specified in your contract that the website does not belong
> to the client until final payment is made? Would this be because it is on
> the clients' server? and not on a testing server.
>
> It's always interesting to read about laws in other countries pertaining to
> this type of issue.
>
>
> Nadia
> -----------------------------------------------
> PerreLink Design:
> Design Templates:Nav Bar Layouts:Web Biz Tools:
> [url]http://www.perrelink.com.au/resources/[/url]
> -----------------------------------------------
> :: Ecommerce & Content Management System::
> [url]http://www.yourvirtualstore.net/yvsa4.asp/[/url]
> Enter "nadia" into coupon box if buying
> and receive a 15% discount !
> -----------------------------------------------
>

--
Good luck!

Coen Naninck
_______________________________

Please do not E-mail me with questions about Fireworks issues. Post them
on the Forum instead. All the time I have left to spend in this Forum
can't be contributed to also answering questions outside the Forum. It
just takes too much time and it doesn't help the rest of the world.

Thank you.

E-mail & MSN: [email]ccnk@home.nl[/email]
Corporate: [url]http://www.wetworks.nl[/url]