subset fonts with Acrobat and InDesign

[Brock_Schnitzer@adobeforums.com]

I ran a test distilling a PDF (tested both distiller 5 & 7) from an InDesign CS2 created postscript file making sure to embed all fonts. All fonts were properly embedded.

However, I placed this PDF into a blank InDesign CS2 document (we are a book publisher and we often place reduced PDFs into Indesign pages of text and then create a postscript and PDF for the final file.) and then created a postscript file and then a PDF using the same settings. All of the fonts that were previously embedded are now subset. What is the issue?

[pjonesCET@adobeforums.com]

You have to have the same fonts on all computers to "not" have subsetted fonts. And on Macintosh on Distiller above 5.x I've noticed That pdf's appear as subsets (for me) even "if I have" the fonts. As far as I know I have set embed all fonts set.

In acrobat if you want to see if fonts are subsets go to Pdf Optimizer and click on fonts. Any shown as subsets didn't come over as truely embeded.

[graffiti]

What happens when you export to PDF from InDesign with subset fonts set at 1%?

Of course, if you are doing this on a different machine, then what Pjones said will apply.

[Brock_Schnitzer@adobeforums.com]

I am familiar with both points from PJones and above. The printers we deal with still recommend creating postscript from apps then PDFs, so exporting is not an option right now. (Let's not start on this issue) not to mention our media department has further problems with exported PDFs when creating Hyperlinks and their needs.

In my test, I have made sure the fonts were embedded in the first PDF by going to Acrobat>Doc Properties>Fonts which tells you in Acrobat that the fonts are embedded properly.

This is something that I can not explain. If InDesign allows you to embed the fonts the first time? Why, when placed in InDesign, does it subset those same fonts? It doesn't make much sense. I am hoping to hear from Adobe on this point becuase it is rather scary.

We produce hundreds of 1000 page projects for teachers per year which have the Student page PDF placed in the Teacher InDesign document. We then postscript and PDF it. If we can not embed those fonts because Acrobat or the postscript is introducing a conflict, we will need to abandon placing PDFs and look at placing them as an EPS(if this is even a solution.).

[de_Siem@adobeforums.com]

Do you have any actual problems with these pdf files?
A subsetted font means that the font is still embedded, however any unused characters will not have been included in the pdf.

The only problems this pdf may have is when it's being eidted with the text touchup tool, or when it's encountering a strict preflight profile that disallows subsetting.

[Brock_Schnitzer@adobeforums.com]

We typically do not have problems for print products althuogh we have on occasion had the printer come back to us and tell us fonts are subset and they need to be embedded (which could be their preflight causing that). Our files need to have the fonts completely embedded for our media products. They merge files in Acrobat and do touch up work with the text tool. We see consistent problems with the media files which are just lower resolution versions of our print product.

Again, I am quite familiar with embedding versus embed subset, I just want to know why InDesign is treating the fonts this way (embedding the first time but subsetting the 2nd).

[de_Siem@adobeforums.com]

It's a good question although the context you've put it in now is helpful as well.

I have no idea why Indesign does this, you might want to ask in the indesign forum instead if you haven't done so already.

[Brock_Schnitzer@adobeforums.com]

I ran a test distilling a PDF (tested both distiller 5 & 7) from an InDesign CS2 created postscript file making sure to embed all fonts. All fonts were properly embedded (checked them in Acrobat>Doc prop>fonts).

However, I placed this embeeded fonts PDF into a blank InDesign CS2 document (we are a book publisher and we often place reduced PDFs into Indesign pages of text and then create a postscript and PDF for the final file.) and then created a postscript file and then a PDF using the same settings. All of the fonts that were previously embedded are now subset. What is the issue?

We need the fonts to be completely embedded mostly for repurposing into Media products where they merge files and do minor text editing.

Does someone have an explanation why InDesign or Acrobat would do this?

[Bob Levine]

Did you change the subset setting to below zero?

Bob

[Brock_Schnitzer@adobeforums.com]

Robert,

No it is at 100% but it is not checked. Embed all fonts is checked, and there are no fonts in the below boxes that say 'Never embed'. So all fonts should embed. Which didn't make a difference because as I said, in the first PDF I created with the setting, the fonts were all embedded. For some reason when you place a PDF within InDesign and then create a new PDF, embedded fonts are made to subset....even if the setting is set to Embed all fonts. I am hoping someone at Adobe has an explanation.

Thank you.

Brock

[Bob Levine]

Check it and change it to 0.

Bob

[Nini Tjäder]

As Bob said - set it to zero (0). 100 percent means that no fonts get embedded. Zero means that all fonts gets embedded.

[Steve_Werner@adobeforums.com]

Assuming that you've been using the InDesign Print dialog box to create PostScript files both times, you would have found the Fonts setting on the Graphics panel. The Fonts setting gives you three choices—None, Subset or Complete. Are you sure you had the same setting each time you created a PostScript file? Is the problem replicable?

[Peter_Truskier@adobeforums.com]

Brock,

I think you may have a misconception about how InDesign treats placed PDFs. They are treated differently in InDesign than in some other apps. They are not treated as an encapsulated object to be left untouched and sent out as-is in the output stream.

I think InDesign actually parses the placed PDF, and deals with its objects more or less as it deals with its own objects.

So, a font that is embedded in a PDF will be handled, and potentially subset, by InDesign according to the export subsetting option. I think Bob and Nini's suggestion will work for you.

[Steve_Werner@adobeforums.com]

I'm reading Brock's message differently than the rest of you (he also posted in the Acrobat forum). I think he is saying that in each case, he created a PostScript file in InDesign, then Distilled the file. He didn't export a PDF, if I'm reading his message correctly.

Therefore the relevant setting when creating PostScript is the Font setting on the Graphics panel. I asked in the Acrobat forum whether he had consistently chose Download: Complete, and whether he could replicate the problem.

[Brock_Schnitzer@adobeforums.com]

I am very familiar with subset versus embed, and the subset less than 0% option. I feel that if Embed all fonts is checked in the Distiller setting, and the subset all characters less than % is not checked, Distiller should try to embed ALL fonts. However, I tried (as suggested) to set it at 0% (which defaults to 1%) and tested again with a similar result. All fonts in the newly created PDF read as embedded subset where in the original PDf they were embedded. However, I appreciate the suggestion.

Peter, I appreciate your elaboration on how InDesign treats a placed PDF. I would appreciate any further feedback. I am finding it impossible to embed fonts in this process. To elaborate on my test, I set up 3 text boxes (each with a different font) in INDD CS2. I created a postscript (which was set to include the complete font set) and then distilled in Distiller 5 and 7 (Embed all fonts was checked, and then also tested as 0% fonts subset). That PDF read as all fonts were embed. I then placed that PDF in a new INDD file and created a .ps file in the same process. I then distilled in Distiller 5 & 7. The newly created PDF reads as all fonts are subset.

[Brock_Schnitzer@adobeforums.com]

It is replicable Steve. I am testing live as I am trying to eliminate as many font issues with PDfs as I can. Complete was chosen in this print setting. We use an established print preset and distiller setting and distribute that to our outside vendors for consistency. This font option is included in this preset.

Thank you for following along and for your feedback. I have posted (as you saw) in the InDesign forum as well. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Peter_Truskier@adobeforums.com]

Ah; yes. Steve is right. I did misread, and too quickly jumped to the conclusion that you were exporting the PDF. Sorry...

I believe that the problem is not with Distiller. My guess is that if you check the PS file in a text editor (the font DSC comments are at the end of the file), you'll find that the fonts have already been subset in the PS. And it seems that selecting "Complete" does nothing to overcome this

I'm actually surprised that your first PS output contained the full font, since I seem to remember that InDesign always subsets when printing.

Is your final PDF single- or multiple-pages? In contrast to the print mechanism, there is an option to control subsetting in InDesign's EPS export. So, if you only need/want/ would be satisfied with single-page output, you could export EPS with the "Embed Fonts:" option set to "Complete."

[chris@adsrus.com]

.... just wondering in type here, but could you set a 99.9% opaque object on the page, in order to kick in the Transparency Flattener with a setting to convert font to outlines?

However, the results may be less than desirable on small body text.

Chris

[Eric_@_MCA@adobeforums.com]

So, a font that is embedded in a PDF will be handled, and potentially
subset, by InDesign according to the export subsetting option.




Actually, this is not true from my experiments today!

[1] Find a PDF that has embedded but not subsetted fonts.
[2] Place it in an new ID 4.04 document.
[3] Export the document as a PDF with 0% subsetting.
[4] View the resulting PDF in Acrobat and you will see that every single font from the PDF is now subsetted.

IMHO, that's a bug not a feature. If one of your PDF goals is completely subset-free embedded fonts, there appears to be no way for ID4 to accommodate you currently...

Currently it appears that what ID 4 does is to subset any fonts that do not appear in a text box in the document regardless of your "Subset" settings in the PDF Export dialog. That is to say, if you create a text box and type a word in a font that is embedded in the PDF and then export as PDF, you will see that the font is fully embedded (respecting the Subset settings) while the others that are only used in the PDF are all subsetted.