the 3d feature

[steven_edward_jones@adobeforums.com]

other than not having to launch classic and use another app (dimensions) whats the point of the 3d feature in cs? the 3d feature is slo and maybe half a versatile ... am i missing something here? don't get it .. glad i kept my old dimension prog if ya asked me ... i used dimensions regularly am i just being pigheaded about the 3d?

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

It's true you can't create 3D scenes as you could in Dimensions, and you can't have 3D objects interact with one another. But the 3D Effect in CS offers some very welcome features, like blending between 3D objects that have different spatial orientations. And, it's pretty nice for people who don't happen to own Dimensions.

[Big Giant Head]

I have found the 3D feature in Illustrator to be too slow to bother using.

The fact that it's also crippled by not being able to create objects that interact in any way in a 3D space. Well it's next to pointless.

Every other time I think to myself "No it can't be that bad" I go back try to use it and the artwork renders with artifacts all over it, or bit missing. Great. just what I needed.

To still be able to say that Dimensions as old as it is, is faster and better is a joke.

The fact that people are still prepared to sing the praises of this so called feature in Illustrator is beyond me.

They must all have Dual 2gig G5's and never have to produce anything more complicated than a single short word with perspective applied. Don’t even think about putting a bevel on it. Unless you want a very very long coffee break while it's thinking about it.

This feature in order to be called a new feature needs a 3D space, speeding up about 10 times and all the rendering bugs removed.

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

I'm running CS on a 1-gig G4 and a dual 1.25 gig G4, and, while I'm not trying to render scenes with the 3D feature (I still use Dim for that), I do some fairly sophisticated stuff, and speed is fine. I guess it depends on what you're asking it to do. Check out the SWF animations on my web site, all done right there in CS. Check out the just-out Illustrator CS Wow! Book. Lots of professional examples of what artists are doing with 3D in CS.

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

I think it is not for BGH but many other people who do not do or need to do 3D environments will find it very useful.

If you had to do a 3d object or text you would jump to Dimensions but if Adobe developed the AI CS effect to the point that it was far superior to Dimensions you would still be complaining only in that case you would be telling everyone that Dimensions was so simple and you though you could do this or that it was so compact and you kind of liked it's unsophisticated gui.

I have a G3 and its slower than Dimensions but not that much slower. So although I believe it can use a lot of improvement like a 3D environment scene composer, which I hope is a separate component from the 3D art creation effect, I don't think BGH is being constructive.

BGH perhaps you have some ideas about what kind of features you would like the effect to have?

[douglas_j_reynolds@adobeforums.com]

Well this got me curious so I went and tested the 3D which I had only used once. I found it rendering in 5 secs or less everything I did so am satisfied. Didn't expect AI to be a 3D program, it's more of a lathe or extruder but that's cool for the type of program it is. I'm running flatscreen iMac G4 800 with 512 ram so no speed monster here.

Funny that FreeHand and AI, which are both superior programs in my opinion, are finally getting around to including all the bells and whistles that Corel Draw had about 8 years ago. Too bad the rest of Corel was so junky.

What I find ridiculously slow in AI CS is adding type to long paragraphs. Taking 3 secs a piece for characters to appear.

AI also needs to borrow from FreeHand and allow us to use the align palette on anchor points or whatever you call them on a curve. I use FH for beziers, much quicker, uses only one tool... I guess its all what you are used to.

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

“I use FH for beziers, much quicker, uses only one tool...”

For sure, it’s what you get used to, but how many bezier tools does Illustrator have? It looks like a gang of them hiding under the Pen, but they are all essentially the same tool, with different functions depending on what helper keys you use it with.

[James_Talmage@adobeforums.com]

"...guess its all what you are used to."

"For sure, it's what you get used to..."

Guys, I don't want to offend anyone's brand sensitivities, but I just gotta say; it's not always a simple matter of what you are used to. Sometimes the truth is just the truth. I am pretty much equally "used to" drawing and manipulating paths in FH and AI, but would honestly have to say I'm convinced FH's pen/pointer treatment is objectively and demonstrably more efficient, less tedious, less cumbersome. (Lest anyone get their feathers unduly ruffled, one feature set does not make a particular program universally "better" or "worse" than another. I can build a list of feature comparisons which would make AI appear to blow FH out of the water--and I can also do the inverse. So please don't take this as an attack on anyone's pet program.)

If you want to talk specifics, I can, but reactive flames are unnecessary, and I will ignore them. I'm not saying FH can't be improved upon or should be copied by AI. I *am* saying AI's basic drawing stuff is long-in-the-tooth in many regards and overdue for an overhaul.

I also personally believe that a Bezier drawing interface/metaphor superior to both AI and FH could be built, and that AI's developers have the talent and imagination to do it.

My fear, though, is that some at Adobe would counter that such an overhaul might be angrily resisted by longtime users with engrained habits--no matter how legitimate the improvements may be.

When I hear many AI users defend the indefensible (single page limitation) and greet significant long-needed advancements (new text engine) with rant after rant, I can understand the apprehension.

JET

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

Hey, James - Nice to see you back. I don't care about mine-is-better-than-yours stuff, either, but it's always good to have a discussion about how something can be made better. I'm sure Illustrator's draw tools could be improved, but I'm danged if I can think of what I'd like them to do that they don't. So what's your idea? How does FH do it better?

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

Oh, yeah James…is that what you think?

I think there has been a lot of discussion about some shortcomings of the AI Bezier limitations and the idea that the pen tool as well as the selection tool behavior be more controlled by simple keyboard input and that both these tools could have expanded capabilities.

I am not real familiar with FH so I can so I can't argue for it's merits or its shortcomings but I can focus on the AI's shortcomings.

I find the most annoying thing about the pen tool and the way the Beziers work is that if I want one side of the curve to run into a straight line I have to drag the handles into the anchor point when all I should have to do is hold down a key or double the handle and I have a straight path. Unless you guys know a way of doing this without having to drag it into the anchor point.

[James_Talmage@adobeforums.com]

"...the most annoying thing about the pen tool and the way the Beziers work is that if I want one side of the curve to run into a straight line..."

Wade,

FH has 3 kinds of points: Curve, Corner, Connector. The Connector point is a remnant from Fontographer (FH's genesis). It ensures tangency where a curve segment meets a straight segment. You don't use it all the time, but when you need it for precise work, it's quite handy.

"...but I'm danged if I can think of what I'd like them to do that they don't..."

Gary,

The list is long and detailed. But Wade's issue brings to mind a couple of specifics:

Select any number of points, on a single path. With one click, convert them to all to corner, curve, or connector points--with or without automatic handle extension. With one click, extend or retract their incomming and/or outgoing handles. (Room for improvement here. Does not work when the selected points are on multiple paths.)

Select any number of open paths and close/open them with one click.

Select any number of points and split them with one command.

Select any number of open paths and connect them with one command.

No need to select endpoints to join segments. (Needs improvement. Should be able to cause specific ends to join depending upon whether endpoints are selected.)

Drag out one handle of a corner point without affecting the previous segment, and without having to change tools.

Midstream, while drawing with the pen, and without changing tools, press momentary modifiers (CommandOption) to bend any previously placed straight segment by dragging its middle. Release the modifier and simply resume drawing from where you left off.

Much simpler select/sub-select method. Click to select. Click again to sub-select. No need to switch tools or even press modifiers.

These off-the-top differences (and others) are each seemingly small things. But taken together in workaday drawing they result in continuously and demonstrably greater efficiency and ease.

Again, I'm not here to sing praises to AI's competitor. I have a list of enhancements I'd like to see in FH's treatment, too (mostly having to do with snap behaviors).

Also again, I am fairly convinced a new and cleaned-up metaphor for Bezier path drawing could be better than FH's, and I'd be happy to see that happen in AI. Despite the fact that I've spent the last couple of years getting habituated to AI's treatment, I'd gladly start over to learn a new, elegant interface that is intuitively logical, consistent, easy to teach, and which pays big dividends in usability.

I also wonder if, given AI's plug-in architecture, such a new drawing toolset couldn't be "bundled up" as an alternate configuration, so that users could choose how to configure their own installation. Maybe that could ease transition to the better system for hesitant users, while letting those eager for improvement enjoy the benefits without the encombrances of the old way. A little marketing hype on introduction, followed by some dedicated proponents on forums like this one could probably make the switch-over palatable for all in the course of two or three subsequent versions.

JET

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

There is a thing called Concatenate and Rick is working on a tool that will allow you to select and join a few end points at a time with a simple drag, I think that is how it works. Or is that already implemented.

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

James - Your list is instructive and useful, but I would relegate most of them into your category - "You don't use it all the time, but when you need it for precise work, it's quite handy. " I wonder how many people would ever actually use them, and if that number would justify the expense of engineering them. I'm sure Adobe wonders the same thing. A couple of items like concatenate would make me happy.

Still, I get your point. It would be nice, but I'm not going to hold my breath. I'm about 90% happy with the way the present bezier system works in AI, and if we have to spend limited development time, I think there are a lot of more highly desirable areas that could use some focus.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

James, you just have to stop doing this. I've not been back to FH for some time
now, disciplining myself to master AI's "Bezier system" and consigning to deep
brain recesses my list of missed FH features.

("I don't NEED those conveniences... I don't NEED those conveniences... I don't
NEED those conveniences....")

Now here you go, forcing right up to the inescapable surface of conciousness
the memory of drawing elegance. Jeez. You're like the scent of a painful love.

Gary, you know I've made a real go at AI... and I've learned an infinity of things
from you already. Clearly you're a skillful and articulate AI master. But when it
comes to FreeHand's unfettered drawing grace, I'm afraid you gotta know it to
really know. The efficiencies in JET's list appear minor and for a minority only to
those who haven't experienced them.

And Wade, I didn't start this FH talk. I'm just weighing in. So go pick on someone
else for a change.

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

I think you and James are in this conspiracy together…come clean!

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

Well, clearly, I don't understand you. I use Freehand a little almost every day, and I just don't get it. Try this. Draw a particular object in FH, and then describe to me how easy it is compared to AI. You know, I get the Pen tool and click-drag to start a path, then I click-drag somewhere else to make a curved point, and so on. Or describe the object , like a cloub shape, with circular segments meeting at a corner point, or something. I just don't get what you could be doing so much more easily, and wonder if you're missing some second-nature (to me) technique in Illustrator.

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

I agree with Gary I would like to have feature request done on the basis that I am using that is I would like to be able to do this instead of "I would like this to be like FreeHand" why can it be like I would need rather than find something that is more like what I want. I don't want that, I want it to work the way I need it to work not to work almost like it.

I have things about AI CS that I would like to see improved according to my needs and
the way that some other program does something.

If I get what I need and it is entirely different and new but does exactly what I want then there you go.

The thing with comparing it to another application is as James pointed out the other application doesn't necessarily have the solution and so the answer may simply lie elsewhere. I hope you guys see why I think your approach is a little screwy?

Hey I have work to get done by Monday morning.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Gary, the problem with a single example is that it can trivialize the overall
advantage of the "system"... a SET of tools and operations that TOGETHER
make for an elegant workflow. But you and I are both smart enough not
to fall into that mental trap. So let me give two of many possible examples:

1) Draw a closed shape. You now want to open it at one of the points. How
do we do this in AI? Tell me if I'm wrong, but I THINK we: 1) switch to the
scissors tool, 2) click on the point (I miss sometimes... maybe that's just a
matter of practice... but I DO have to click) 3) Switch back to the DS tool,
4) click away from the path to deselect, 5) click back on the top of the
two, overlapping points and drag away. In FH? Select the point, press
command-shift-J. To me, this is not just a shortcut key combination. It's
a "construct," born in Fontographer, and based on the idea that this particular
operation (at least for illustrators) should be convenient because it's used
with regularity.

2) You want to retract the Bezier control handles of a point. Again, an
illustrator must edit his path points and segments regularly and this is
a common part of the ordeal. How do we do this in AI? As I understand it,
we get the DS tool, and drag each handle individually into the point, waiting
for the cursor to give feedback that we're indeed over the point. Or we first
switch to the convert anchor point tool, then click. In FH? Click the Retract
Handles buttons. Maybe more to the point, now that those handles are
retracted, you want to PULL THEM OUT to make a single-handle corner point.
In AI? Well, you know. Switch to the convert anchor point tool, pull, retract one,
pull again, etc. In FH? Option drag a handle.

Personally, I've gotten used to AI. And I love it. Nor do I think FH is the answer.
See, Wade misunderstands me. I'm not even hoping for some next generation
system that combines and improves on the two. I just use each for its strengths.
Period.

But you asked.

[James_Talmage@adobeforums.com]

Gary:
"I would relegate most of them into your category - 'You don't use it all the time, but when you need it for precise work, it's quite handy. '"

Well, Gary, that would just be a mistake. All but that one item I qualified (Connector Points) comprise a collection of capabilities experienced FH users take for granted all day, every day. They are to the FH user what your set of keyboard tool switches are for AI--invaluable. Except that they are almost all simpler to achieve than the AI counterpart (where such counterparts exist; and as you can see from the list, many counterparts are simply non-existent.)

Doug:
"The efficiencies in JET's list appear minor and for a minority only to those who haven't experienced them."

This is correct.

Gary:
"...and wonder if you're missing some second-nature (to me) technique in Illustrator."

And I can counter: I have to similarly wonder if you have really taken time to learn and become accustomed the efficiencies in FH.

But as I said, I'm quite willing to civilly compare specifics:

Gary:
"Draw a particular object in FH, and then describe to me how easy it is compared to AI. You know, I get the Pen tool and click-drag to start a path, then I click-drag somewhere else to make a curved point, and so on."

Okay. Here's a classic example, detailing the behavior of the seventh item I listed above:

You have an imported sketch on the background layer. You're going to trace it. It has alot of longish, gently bowed curved segments beween corner points. You are zoomed way in as you progress around the tracing. For the sake of simplicity in comparing details, we'll assume you are working at a zoom at which the two points defining one segment take up almost all the on-screen room.

Now, yes, you CAN draw this exactly the same way you would in AI (as I suspect you probably do, Gary, when working in FH):

1) Pen: Click to place the first point at the top of the page. You can see that the next segment is one of those long, bowed ones, so you clickdrag to extend a handle to impose the bow.

2) Click to place the second point near the bottom of the screen. Okay, your educated guess as to how far to drag out that top handle wasn't *too* bad. The curve fits acceptably well, even though you can now see it could have fit better if it were caused by two shorter handles, rather than one long one. Well, you could Undo, then ClickDrag the bottom point, then press Alt/Option to make the curve a cusp. But of course, since the second point is near the bottom of the screen, ClickDragging would have scrolled half of the curve you were trying to match out of view, which is why you decided to just place a corner point to begin with, accepting the fact that you might have to go back and convert it to drag out it's handle later....But it's okay, we're on a tight schedule, so we just take what we got and proceed.

3) You press the spacebar to momentarily invoke the hand tool and move the page upward so you can see where the next segment needs to go. Dang. It's another one about like the first. Now you know you should have extended two points from that curve point after all.

4) So this time, you're not gonna be fooled. You go ahead and convert the second point, press Alt/Opt to cusp it, and position the outgoing handle not so long this time, but only about half the length you estimate you'll need for the next segment's curvature. You may have to zoom out a bump or two, or scroll, to get this right, but like I said, you're not gonna be fooled this time.

5) Now satisfied with the first curved segment, you're again zoomed into the next segment, you have a cusp point at the top with its outgoing handle extended, and where you need the next point is at the bottom of the screen. You ClickDrag so that the new point's incoming handle will be extended. This, of course, scrolls the page again, revealing that the next segment is short and straight. Well, rats. Now you can either press Alt/Option (before mouseup) to cusp the current point and tediously drag the outgoing handle back into the point ("Hmmm...did I have snap to points on or not? Oh well...."), or you can just let go of the current point, go ahead and place a corner at the next junction and go back and clean things up later.

And so on.

In this kind of common situation I frequently just take advantage of a FH feature which Kvern long ago lovingly dubbed "Bendomatic":

1) Click to place the first point at the top of the page.

2) Click to place the second point at the bottom of the page, creating a straight segment.

3) Press CtrlAlt/CmdOpt. The Ctrl/Cmd component of this momentarily invokes FH's pointer (which can both select and "direct-select", BTW). The Alt/Opt component momentarily allows the pointer to bend a segment. While holding those keys, I ClickDrag anywhere along the middle of the straight segment. As I do so, it gently and controllably bends, automatically causing its associated handles at both the top and bottom points to extend/retract accordingly. It's quite easy and quick to put just the bend I want in the segment, and I can do so without causing another point to be created mid-curve.

4) Satisfied with the curve, I release the keys. The pen is restored and I simply resume drawing from where I left off. No need to re-invoke the pen or re-activate the endpoint. I scroll down, place the next point, and similarly bend that segment, confident that whatever I do will not disturb what I have already done to the preceding one.

Now, I don't know if the above tediously detailed description conveys the quickness, ease, and predictability of the "bendomatic" behavior, but trust me. In common practice, you can (but, of course, don't have to) trace something by very quickly just click-click-clicking corner points at each junction within view, press the modifiers to perform a single bend on each segment, and then release the keys to scroll the next range of segments into view and resume drawing.

The bendomatic behavior is an excellent way to introduce a new user to Beziers, BTW, because it's clean, controlable, and simple to understand.

AI's DirectPointer can change the shape of already curved segments. But rather than bend straight segments, it moves them *and* their associated points (an example of several confusing inconsistencies). But even when altering the bend of curved segments, the subtle difference that *makes* the difference is that handles of corner points are angle-constrained. So rather than being able to gently control the bend, you get difficult-to-control/predict and usually impractical distortions.

So that's one example. Again I feel complelled to issue the disclaimer: I'm not saying AI is trash because it doesn't do this exactly like FH; and I'm not saying FH is Heaven's gift. I *am* saying AI is missing an important and basic Bezier feature: the ability to gently and predictably bend a straight segment by dragging its middle. (Do not confuse this with loosey-goosey "push-pull" freeform tools, which are present in both programs.)

JET

[James_Talmage@adobeforums.com]

At the risk of overstating it, please let me remind anyone following this thread that I *am* one of you. that is, I'm an enthusiastic Illustrator user. I'd even go so far as to say that presently I am *primarily* an Illustrator user. I recently had to recommend software for a particular enterprise to standardize upon, and I recommended AI, not FH, as the drawing component best suited for the particular purpose.

The only reason I expend so much breath here is because I have seen real evidence that Adobe Illustrator's development team listens. Despite being part of a "corporate monolith", they stil have the "fire in the belly" for doing great things with innovative software. For one example, I think anyone who reads Teri Petit's posts can understand when I say that I often feel it's not AI's developers that need convincing of AI's room for carefully-thought-out drawing tools improvement, as it is AI's users.

JET