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the brain trust at kagi - Mac Applications & Software

A couple of months ago I got into a 'ing match' with Brian Clark of Thoth fame. After finding out I was misled by others, I tried to register Toth. Shortly after I received confirmation, I receive a note from Clark saying he refused to sell it to me. Fine,, no loss, plenty of other news readers out there. Now, last week I go to Kagi to pay for another shareware app and my purchase is declined. I contact Kagi and receive a one line, broken English reply that my address is blocked for fraud. After more emails I am ...

  1. #1

    Default the brain trust at kagi

    A couple of months ago I got into a 'ing match' with Brian Clark of
    Thoth fame. After finding out I was misled by others, I tried to
    register Toth. Shortly after I received confirmation, I receive a note
    from Clark saying he refused to sell it to me. Fine,, no loss, plenty of
    other news readers out there. Now, last week I go to Kagi to pay for
    another shareware app and my purchase is declined. I contact Kagi and
    receive a one line, broken English reply that my address is blocked for
    fraud. After more emails I am told by Kagi that Clark reported my
    purchase as fraud. So I write Clark and he claims he told them I
    shouldn't be allowed to purchase his software. Like I care. (He's got
    some expanded apinion of his apps.)

    So Kagi, in their wisdom blocks me from software from any shareware
    authors that use them. I've sent dozens of emails and Kagi refuses to do
    anything. I've registered lots of apps lately and few use Kagi's clutzy
    interface, so I'm not missing much. Shareware authors who use Kagi might
    be concerned that one person can get Kago to block folks from sending
    you money, without any proof.
    David Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    In article <news.adelphia.net>,
    David Turley <com> wrote:
     

    It seems obvious that there's more to this than you're letting on, and
    without knowing more it's impossible to know whether the rest of your
    message describes reasonable actions by Clark and Kagi or unreasonable
    ones.

    --
    Tom "Tom" Harrington
    Macaroni, Automated System Maintenance for Mac OS X.
    Version 1.4: Best cleanup yet, gets files other tools miss.
    See http://www.atomicbird.com/
    Tom Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    In article <tph-616B93.10543922092003localhost>,
    Tom Harrington <no.spam.dammit.net> wrote:
     
    >
    > It seems obvious that there's more to this than you're letting on, and
    > without knowing more it's impossible to know whether the rest of your
    > message describes reasonable actions by Clark and Kagi or unreasonable
    > ones.[/ref]

    Without taking sides in the above issue, if something is offered for
    sale to the public, is it legal to refuse to sell it to an individual?
    Does shareware qualify as something offered for sale to the public?

    --
    Tom Stiller

    PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
    7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF
    Tom Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    In article
    <comcast.giganews.com>,
    Tom Stiller <net> wrote:
     
    > >
    > > It seems obvious that there's more to this than you're letting on, and
    > > without knowing more it's impossible to know whether the rest of your
    > > message describes reasonable actions by Clark and Kagi or unreasonable
    > > ones.[/ref]
    >
    > Without taking sides in the above issue, if something is offered for
    > sale to the public, is it legal to refuse to sell it to an individual?
    > Does shareware qualify as something offered for sale to the public?[/ref]

    The original post (in a section I didn't quote) indicates that at least
    one and possibly two of the three parties involved believe that fraud
    has occurred. A business is not obligated to be defrauded. Whether
    it's reasonable to use the word "fraud" in this case is not clear,
    because we're given no clues as to why anyone suggested this. That's
    why I said it was impossible to come to any conclusions about the events
    described in the message without a fuller explanation of what happened.
    There's relevant information that was not included in the original post.

    --
    Tom "Tom" Harrington
    Macaroni, Automated System Maintenance for Mac OS X.
    Version 1.4: Best cleanup yet, gets files other tools miss.
    See http://www.atomicbird.com/
    Tom Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    In article <tph-C440C1.11462922092003localhost>,
    Tom Harrington <no.spam.dammit.net> wrote:
     
    > >
    > > Without taking sides in the above issue, if something is offered for
    > > sale to the public, is it legal to refuse to sell it to an individual?
    > > Does shareware qualify as something offered for sale to the public?[/ref]
    >
    > The original post (in a section I didn't quote) indicates that at least
    > one and possibly two of the three parties involved believe that fraud
    > has occurred. A business is not obligated to be defrauded. Whether
    > it's reasonable to use the word "fraud" in this case is not clear,
    > because we're given no clues as to why anyone suggested this. That's
    > why I said it was impossible to come to any conclusions about the events
    > described in the message without a fuller explanation of what happened.
    > There's relevant information that was not included in the original post.[/ref]

    Thanks. I'll just watch to see what, if anything, shakes out.

    --
    Tom Stiller

    PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
    7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF
    Tom Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    In article <tph-616B93.10543922092003localhost>,
    Tom Harrington <no.spam.dammit.net> wrote:
     
    >
    > It seems obvious that there's more to this than you're letting on, and
    > without knowing more it's impossible to know whether the rest of your
    > message describes reasonable actions by Clark and Kagi or unreasonable
    > ones.[/ref]

    Don't know what obvious things you think I am not letting on. That's all
    there is.

    Kagi tells me:
    "Kagi is the company blocking the email address. This is because the
    supplier of a product that was purchased under your email address
    requested a refund be issued because the order was fraudulent. "

    In a subsequent note Kagi writes:
    "The refund was for Thoth and it was entered as a fraud refund for the
    supplier."

    Kagi refuses to allow me to buy any software. Period.

    According to Brian Clark he wrote to Kagi:

    "Please issue a refund for the following order. This person should not be
    allowed to order my software in the future. I will hold Kagi responsible
    for any future refund charges."

    Clark's explanation to me when I wrote him about Kagi claiming he filed
    a fraud complaint:

    "This is all that I every wrote to Kagi about this subject. I did not
    say or suggest in any manner that the order was fraudulent or that the
    customer should not be allowed to purchase from Kagi. I stated that I
    wanted his sales for *my* products blocked, since I would not sell to
    him, and I have to pay Kagi for each refund and therefore lose money."

    That's what I have. I can't speak for Clark or Kagi if their version are
    true or not.
    David Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    Tom Stiller wrote:
     

    It was pretty common in the States to refuse to sell goods
    and services to customers based on skin colour, attire,
    political beliefs, etc. Some merchants still "reserve the
    right to refuse service to anyone", but they are just
    asking for trouble. I'd be surprised if Kagi reverted to
    this kind of Jim Crow tactic, given that they are in
    Berkeley, California's capital of free speech and human rights.

    So I hope Kagi can present their side of this, if only
    to avoid the appearance of stonewalling. But if they already
    said there's fraud involved when it was actually a personality
    conflict, that can be construed as libellous behavior, and
    can only alienate their customers.
    George Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    In article <com>,
    George Williams <com> wrote:
     


    I have no problem admitting the starrt of the problem was a personality
    conflict: mine. :-( But even Brian Clark wrote to Kagi on September 18
    to confirm there was no fraud.
    David Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:45:40 UTC, David Turley <com>
    wrote:
     

    If they have blocked your e-mail account, why not just sign up for
    another free one that, presumably, won't be blocked? I have a couple of
    despammed accounts (such as the one in my sig) that I use for NG posts
    and online ordering that are then forwarded to my main e-mail address.

    --
    Please reply to: com

    v1r0b1k@despammed.com Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    In article <YmSPgjx6zsY1-pn2-jYoVk0gDCduHlocalhost>,
    com wrote:

     

    I've got plenty of email addresses to use, that's not the point of my
    post. Kagi is claiming I attempted fraud and refusing to provide proof
    or rectify. Why would I want to do business with such a company?
    David Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    George Williams <com> writes:
     

    Well, free speech is allowed only so long as it's agreeable. :->
    http://www.nas.org/print/pressreleases/hqnas/releas_08mar01.htm
    http://www.eroplay.com/fmup/no_censorship_mac.html
    http://www.drsusanblock.com/editorial/BerkeleyFreeSpeech.htm
    http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/dreamweaver/bannedbks/censorbooks.html
    http://www.leftwatch.com/articles/2000/000164.html
    and more.

    --
    Philip Stripling | email to the replyto address is presumed
    Legal Assistance on the Web | spam and read later. email to philip
    http://www.PhilipStripling.com/ | my domain is read daily.
    Phil Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    In article
    <comcast.giganews.com>,
    Tom Stiller <net> wrote:
     

    Without taking sides in the underlying issue, yes, it is legal in the
    U.S. for a merchant to refuse to sell an item to an individual as the
    long as the reason for the refusal is not based on the prospective
    purchaser's belonging to a protected class under the law. IOW, a
    merchant can't refuse to sell to you based on your race, religion,
    gender, etc. He can refuse to sell to you because he doesn't like the
    way you part your hair, or because you're from New York, or whatever.

    A sale is a contract under law. Neither the merchant nor the would-be
    buyer can be compelled to enter into a contract.

    Shareware does indeed qualify as something offered for sale to the
    public.
    --
    D.F. Manno
    net

    Nobody Died When Clinton Lied
    D.F. Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    In article <news.adelphia.net>,
    David Turley <com> wrote:
     

    Well, isn't this an amazing coincidence? After 5 days of emailing Kagi
    with no results, a mere 8 hours after I post to usenet I get an email
    from Kagi saying they will removed the block. (Of course, the "there
    will be a 24 hour delay" cliche is included in the note. :-)
    David Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    Phil Stripling wrote: 
    >
    > Well, free speech is allowed only so long as it's agreeable. :->[/ref]

    Yeah, I know - it's called irony.
    Berserkeley is famous for suppressing free speech and
    violating the First Amendment on a daily basis. They
    may be petty, vindictive and prejudiced to the point
    of insanity (like any good OS X acolyte), but I never
    expected to see one of them reserve the right to
    refuse service to anyone.
    George Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    In article <news.adelphia.net>,
    David Turley <com> wrote:
     

    Can *you* say "law suit for slander"?

    --
    You are what you eat, therefore, I'm a vegetable! Cows and chickens
    and Pop Tarts are too.
    Howard Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    Howard Shubs wrote:
     

    Slander is spoken defamation. Libel is easier
    to prove, as there's a written record. It
    won't come to that, now that they've wised up.
    But they need to get rid of whomever made the
    offending statements if they want to prevent
    more serious repetitions of these events.
    George Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    In article <com>,
    George Williams <com> wrote:
     

    Correction accepted.

    --
    You are what you eat, therefore, I'm a vegetable! Cows and chickens
    and Pop Tarts are too.
    Howard Guest

  18. #18

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    In article <news.adelphia.net>,
    David Turley <com> wrote:

     


    Guess I gave them too much credit. It's been more than 24 hours and
    still the email address is blocked. Guess I will continue my letter
    writing campaign to shareware authors.

    From: com
    Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:53:00 PM US/Eastern
    To:
    Subject: [Kagi Trouble Ticket #56228]: declined charge for no reason

    I have removed the block in our system. This will take 24 hours.

    Mike
    admin for Kagi
    David Guest

  19. #19

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    use a different email address?

    David Turley wrote:
     

    Fetch, Guest

  20. #20

    Default Re: the brain trust at kagi

    In article <news.adelphia.net>,
    David Turley <com> wrote:

     
    >
    >
    > Guess I gave them too much credit. It's been more than 24 hours and
    > still the email address is blocked. Guess I will continue my letter
    > writing campaign to shareware authors.
    >
    > From: com
    > Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:53:00 PM US/Eastern
    > To:
    > Subject: [Kagi Trouble Ticket #56228]: declined charge for no reason
    >
    > I have removed the block in our system. This will take 24 hours.
    >
    > Mike
    > admin for Kagi[/ref]


    Well, here is it 5 days later and the block remains. I've written the
    three times since they sent me the above lie and they refuse to
    acknowledge my emails or remove the block. As it stands, they falsely
    accuse me of fraud, and then make false claims that they removed the
    block. I did an experiment where I found an inexpensive piece of
    shareware and tried to register it. It failed to go thru, I change email
    address and it worked.

    As I said before, I can certainly use another email address but that's
    not the point. How can I trust a company with my CC info when they seem
    to have a problem with the truth.

    And then what is one to think about shareware authors who choose to use
    such a company?
    David Guest

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