This new PDF size thing is really not working out

[JasonSmith@adobeforums.com]

Please make PDF work like it did in the past...if I have a 24"x89" file - I EXPECT that file to 'save as' at 24"x89"....NOT 23"x87" as it does now.

Either that or have AI 10 availabe for disgruntled *registered* owners of AI CS.

Tnx.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Huh? Why isn't isn't it saving exactly at the size you specify? You mean you have
a PDF that you've opened in AICS, then you resave it (as a PDF, as an AI?) and the
size shrinks?

Or do you mean you have an AICS native file that, when you Save As PDF, the
dimensions change? Is this only over a certain size?

(I'm asking because, so far, my PDFs saved directly out of AI have not shifted
size.)

[JasonSmith@adobeforums.com]

I have a client supplied EPS.

Resized to our specs, with our cut marks added. Final document size: 24"x89".

Save as PDF. Open in Acrobat 6.01: 23"x87". Actually, this one went to press - at 23"x87" with no cut marks.

I am getting LOTS of other wierd final sizes from PDFs AND EPS files saved from CS.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Jason, as far as you can tell it's ONLY saving as PDF from an EPS that's been
opened in AICS?

[JasonSmith@adobeforums.com]

errm, If I understand the question - Yes.

Usually I've been having the 'oversized' problem when saving PDF's, that is including masked areas outside of the artboard.

Setting crop marks fixes that....sometimes, but not always.

This is the first set of files (yes there's two of them) that were undersized when saved as PDF.

Saving the same files as EPS is fine.

[John_Kallios@adobeforums.com]

The best way (imo) that I found with dealing with this is to treat Illustrator more as a dtp application.

Set the document size to the intended crop size and have the desired bleed amount hang off. (only the desired amount and no more, mask if needed)

Use the crop marks in the save dialog and adjust the bleed to bring the document size to desired.

example: 23x87 document adds a top bleed and bottom bleed of 1" and left and right side bleed of .5". Resulting pdf size will be 24x89.

I know this was not answering your question. Just telling you my workflow in dealing with this situation.

[JasonSmith@adobeforums.com]

That's the wierd thing: the Illustrator crop marks are outside MY crop marks, and yet the final PDF size is smaller than my crops, and far smaller than the .AI crops.

If anything it should be bigger.

Something that I thought would work: I set a rectangle filled with white that encompasses the entire document size - still no difference in output size.

[John_Kallios@adobeforums.com]

Do not use object>crop area>make

Use the crop marks in the save for pdf dialog window>marks and bleeds

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

How come, JK? Why would the print dialog marks work more effectively?

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

Illustrator's Crop Area command doesn't allow for bleeds - unless you allow for them when you draw the rectangle from which the crop area is made. It's alwys worked faultlessly for me.

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

In the print dialogue where it says Media select custom and type 24 x 89.

Print to Adobe PDF.

[John_Kallios@adobeforums.com]

Doug

As Gary mentioned, crop area does not allow bleeds. Well that is not entirely true. (I will get to this a little later) What crop area does not do is produce crop marks in the pdf.

Lets use a 8.5x11 document as an example with a rectangle filled with red swatch 9.5x12 with center point at x=4.25 y=5.5.

What we need to know is that pdfs contain Crop box (C), Bleed box (B ), Trim box (T) and Art box (A). The Crop box dimension is what is displayed in Acrobat. All these boxes can be adjusted in Acrobat.

Given the sample save as a 1.5 (version 6) pdf with no dialog crops or bleed amount and view in Acrobat.

C= 9.5x12, B=8.5x11, T=8.5x11, A= 9.5x12

You will notice the whole element is in the pdf (9.5x12) and that the pdf's dimension is based upon the elements of the Illustrator document and not the page size of the Illustrator document.

Make another 1.5 pdf WITH dialog crop marks and NO bleed.

C= 9.5x12, B=8.5x11, T=8.5x11, A= 9.5x12

All the dimensions are the same as previous. When viewing the file though, the dialog crop marks are set to the page dimension and not the elements but the pdf size is based upon the elements and not the page. So, you have dialog crops that are over the artwork.

Object>crop area>make and generate another 1.5 pdf with dialog crops and no bleed.

C= 8.5x11, B=8.5x11, T=8.5x11, A= 8.5x11

The crops will not show even though dialog crops were chosen. But (and this is where I referred to when I would get to about crop area not allowing bleeds) is that if we adjust any one of the C,B,T or A, we can reveal the whole element up to 9.5x11 and see that the dialog crop marks are there.

Object>crop area> release and make a pdf with dialog crop marks and .125 bleed.

C= 9.5x12, B=8.75x11.25, T=8.5x11, A= 9.5x12

Now we are getting a little closer to what Jason wanted. (at least what I think he wanted) The initial view C shows 9.5x12 with crops but even though we have the bleed set, the bleed amount entered does not mask out the rest of the elements past the bleed. We are still stuck with the whole image. Thus, we need to mask out manually before making the pdf.

Back in Illustrator, copy the rectangle, then change the fill and stroke to none. Paste in front and in transform palette with center point selected, change dimension to 8.75x11.25. Save a final pdf with dialog crops and .125 bleed and view.

C= 9.5x12, B=8.75x11.25, T=8.5x11, A= 9.5x12

When viewing, we generated a desired pdf dimension of 9.5x12 that shows crop marks and the visable bleed is .125.

The issue in this thread was that the printer used the pdf's crop box. That is why it was to size. This is a relatively common (at least for a lot of prepress people I deal with) that they do not know to check or even know that extra exists in the pdf. Example is all those prepress who drops pdfs in Xpress. Xpress only uses the crop box. The trim shows prepress intended final size of the piece without having to break out a ruler. The bleed and trim box can be used for impositioning without the need of cropping the extra dimension past the bleed of the pdf.

So, to answer your question. Use crop area>make when wanting to make a pdf with crop box dimension the same as the crop area>make. So that you do not need to adjust in Acrobat.

Do not use crop area> make if you want to set the bleed box, dialog crop marks and the crop box to view everything in the initial view in Acrobat.

Jason

A correction to the suggested workflow.

Create the page as 23x87
Create a no fill, no stroke rectagle 24x89 with center point at x=11.5 y=43.5
Create a clipping path if needed to mask off anything past the bleed area. (It will be a problem though if it extends past the no fill no stroke element that determines the pdf page dimension. The pdf page dimension is based upon the bounding box of all the elements regardless if it is a clipping mask)
Save as pdf with the crop marks and set bleed to desired amount.

Why chose this method over printing to pdf? My personal choice is to retain Illustrator editting capabilities. Your needs may differ. Retaining transparency is also a big determining factor to me.

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Well, you put new words in mine. Unless I totally lost you (I may have) we are
NOT TALKING ABOUT SAVE AS PDF direct from AICS. We're talking about
"printing" a PDF (obviously with Acrobat installed to make available this option)!

Is that right? If so, it's no wonder I didn't get what you guys were saying. Will
be loading Acrobat Pro this weekend, so I'll be more intelligent about these
things then.

And if I'm WRONG - and we ARE talking about Save As PDF - then I really am
lost.

[John_Kallios@adobeforums.com]

We ARE talking about save as pdf.

[JasonSmith@adobeforums.com]

"Why chose this method over printing to pdf? My personal choice is to retain Illustrator editting capabilities"

That's exactly right.

A month ago I WAS able to just simply save as PDF. Those days are long gone - CS made damn sure of that.

I'm really NOT happy about it - and I really wish Adobe would make AI 10 available to our other users that had to BUY AI CS.

I have loads of other issues with our "Adobe Postcript® Level 3 RIPS" as well.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Wait a second, JK. When I SAVE AS PDF, I never GET to the print dialog that would
have me set crops and bleeds there! You mean, I should first go as if I'm printing
to the print dialog, make my crop/bleed/trim settings, press Done (rather than
Print) then Save As PDF, and the resulting PDF will reflect my PRINT settings?!

[JasonSmith@adobeforums.com]

WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE THIS DIFFICULT!?

If a document is a certain size - WHY the convoluted BS to get the final output that size!!??

W..T...F?

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Sorry, Jason. This is your thread, and I DON'T want to distract. I'm just trying to
understand what in the world we're talking about. Take a look at the post above
yours (#16). Just tell me WTF we're talking about in terms of PROCESS. I still
can't tell if Adobe Acrobat (not Reader, the full Acrobat) is involved here, or
if you're doing just a "simple" straight SAVE AS out of AICS, using the AICS
"native" PDF dialog. If you are, where does the AICS Print dialog come in? When
I Save As directly out of AICS, I never GO to the Print dialog to get to Crop, Trim,
Bleed marks. (I don't yet have Acrobat installed so maybe that's why I'm sort of
confused here?)

[John_Kallios@adobeforums.com]

Doug

Create a new document in Illustrator.

Save as a pdf.

A save as window appears where you name the file and designate the location it is to be saved in.

After this, you are brought in to another window Adobe PDF options.

Left side contains tabs for

General
Compression
Marks & Bleeds
Advanced
Security
Summary

Click on the Marks & Bleeds to set the crop marks and the bleed amount there.

Jason

The main "bug" with the save to pdf is that Crop box should be determined by the document size and the crop box is only enlarged by the addition of bleed and crop marks in the Marks & Bleeds dialog. What is is that the Crop box is determined by the elements in the document. (unless crop area is designated)

What does this mean? Well, if we do not like how it is implemented (if this was intentional) then we petition Adobe to change it. Even if they plan on changing it for the next dot release, we still need to deal with the here and now in dealing with individual workflow.

Another workaround (though still a pain) is to place a AI file in InDesign and export to pdf there. InDesign's export to pdf works in the way we are discussing and retains transparency. You do lose Illustrator's editting capabilities though.