told ya, they're sweatin it

[shmuckatelli]

I'm going to try to refrain from sounding like I'm patting myself on the
back... but.. what the heck. Told ya so, one of my last posts a month or so
ago. Here we go again with the CF is SUNK comments.... I'll give $100 to a
charity of choice to the first person who can find the oldest forum post
predicting the same outcome (post link in thread please)... I'll put a cutoff
date for submissions to Monday at 9:00am EST... I'll bet it started somewhere
around CF 3.0 (what version are we on now?? 7?) just about the time it hit the
radar screens of some who still think they're nameless. 'They' - are the ones
who don't acknowledge advantages to having flash forms built-in. 'They' - are
the ones who don't dare acknowledge a faster development cycle. 'They' - are
the ones who can't allow there to be even remote discussion about running on
more platforms. 'They' - are the ones who dare not think there actually are
advantages to using CF.... 'They' - are the ones who are sweatin it.

[ronnie]

>>I'll bet it started somewhere
around CF 3.0 (what version are we on now?? 7?)

I believe it started around version 4 actually, but whatever. Itt has taken
just a few years to die out in my country and a few others I know of. So I
guess those that predicted it back then were pretty much right. I would even
say it happened faster than even they thought.

Keep in mind, it's hard to define "died" really. I would say COBOL has
"died", yet it is actually being used by certain folk for certain reasons. I
think we are talking about a complete lack of mainstream acceptance and
widespread usage here when we say "died" - coldfusion is very much at that
point already. for all intyent and purposes, it is dead. You wouldn't
exactly choose it if you were out to start a career in web dev and you
wouldn't waste your time with it if "being marketable" was on your mind. So,
its dead.

How do I determine that? Well, look forward (or not) to a paper/article out
soon titled "The Problem With Coldfusion". (Not by myself personally, but I
have had some input)

>> 'They' - are the ones who dare not think there actually are

advantages to using CF.

No. "They" are the ones who want to be marketable and perhaps get a bit of
respect from other developers and colleagues who, to be frank, think
coldfusion is a bit of a joke. (incorrectly in my opinion)

'They' - are the ones who are sweatin it.

This time, absolutely correct, I for one am certainly sweating it, I have
time invested in cf and my skills are useless - I am programming PHP for a
living right now, yukk!


Lets be careful here - coldfusion is a great product. The stink being kicked
up in here as of late is more about getting macromedia to pull their finger
out than about having a whinge or "chip on the shoulder" about things. Some
people don't like to hear it, some think it should be heard and dealt with
if possible. But the issue is very real, Coldfusion is dying out and
Macromedia could be doing a ton more to improve things.


"shmuckatelli" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:d2g0sr$8ik$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> I'm going to try to refrain from sounding like I'm patting myself on the
> back... but.. what the heck. Told ya so, one of my last posts a month or
> so
> ago. Here we go again with the CF is SUNK comments.... I'll give $100 to a
> charity of choice to the first person who can find the oldest forum post
> predicting the same outcome (post link in thread please)... I'll put a
> cutoff
> date for submissions to Monday at 9:00am EST... I'll bet it started
> somewhere
> around CF 3.0 (what version are we on now?? 7?) just about the time it
> hit the
> radar screens of some who still think they're nameless. 'They' - are the
> ones
> who don't acknowledge advantages to having flash forms built-in. 'They' -
> are
> the ones who don't dare acknowledge a faster development cycle. 'They' -
> are
> the ones who can't allow there to be even remote discussion about running
> on
> more platforms. 'They' - are the ones who dare not think there actually
> are
> advantages to using CF.... 'They' - are the ones who are sweatin it.
>

[shmuckatelli]

sOOOO.. i guess that what you are saying is.... the CF community for 2.0,3.0
and 4.0 and 4.5 must have been HUGE! cause that was about 10yrs ago... and the
CF is dying comments have been going on since then...well... there must be like
6 or 7 guys out there using it now... there's no way that after 5 new versions
and 10yrs there can possibly be anyone left Well I must be number 6 or 7....
heck I can't believe I get support from these forums... there's only 6 people
here that really use CF. OK, all the rest of you 6 people pretending to be more
better vacate these forums immediately cause 1/7th of the CF community just
left the building... oh, and those saps at Macromedia are creating new server
engines for 6 people... they're going to have a hard time recouping their
development money. if only I'ld listened to those guys 10yrs ago... wait a
minute... who are all the people at the conferences and the local CF
communities... ARE ALL YOU PEOPLE TRAVELING ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY JUST TO MESS
WITH ME!! SPEAK UP! I DEMAND ANSWERS!

[ronnie]

>>heck I can't believe I get support from these forums

do you? Thats one of the biggest complaints I hear, lousy support and a
small user community.

>> Macromedia are creating new server

engines for 6 people

MX 7 is not a new server engine. Its just v6 with a few wrappers around
existing java API's.

>>they're going to have a hard time recouping their

> development money.

Yes, correct, they ARE having a hard time making money from coldfusion. The
competition is crushing it and the pressure is showing. Why is there still
no drawing API or true OO support via interfaces? Macromedia's response was
because they had to make sacrafices in order to deliver in a timely fashion
(MX 7) - how many developers do you think they have working on coldfusion if
thats how bad it gets - you have to leave out 2 major features that already
exist in your competitions (even PHP, which is free) products! (and there
are others)

>>who are all the people at the conferences and the local CF

communities

When you say ALL? Have you ever been to a Microsoft, PHP or J2EE conference?
I can say with some confidence that you have not. If you doubt that the
community behind coldfusoin is very small, then let ignorance make you feel
better. Most people put it quite friendly and say "the small, but loyal,
coldfusion community" Even most cf folk don't argue with that.

You sound like somebody buried way too deep in Macromedia land to have ever
taken a step outside to see where it fits in the scheme of things. And if
it's making you money, then why should you I guess. But remember, we are
folk living in places where coldfusion was dominant or equal to other
technologies adn now it has all but faded into oblivion -let us kick up our
stink and just be happy that, for now, you are (apparently) unaffected.








"shmuckatelli" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:d2gotq$d9l$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> sOOOO.. i guess that what you are saying is.... the CF community for
> 2.0,3.0
> and 4.0 and 4.5 must have been HUGE! cause that was about 10yrs ago... and
> the
> CF is dying comments have been going on since then...well... there must be
> like
> 6 or 7 guys out there using it now... there's no way that after 5 new
> versions
> and 10yrs there can possibly be anyone left Well I must be number 6 or
> 7....
> heck I can't believe I get support from these forums... there's only 6
> people
> here that really use CF. OK, all the rest of you 6 people pretending to be
> more
> better vacate these forums immediately cause 1/7th of the CF community
> just
> left the building... oh, and those saps at Macromedia are creating new
> server
> engines for 6 people... they're going to have a hard time recouping their
> development money. if only I'ld listened to those guys 10yrs ago... wait
> a
> minute... who are all the people at the conferences and the local CF
> communities... ARE ALL YOU PEOPLE TRAVELING ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY JUST TO
> MESS
> WITH ME!! SPEAK UP! I DEMAND ANSWERS!
>

[shmuckatelli]

Man this discussion gets old and never really contributes anything. I've been
in business over 10yrs and still use Cold Fusion almost to exclusivity, little
javascript, some flash. I have never seen it unable to accomplish any task, in
fact if somebody says no way can't do that I usually can think of 2 or 3 ways
to accomplish it, if they say - there might be a way to do that, I can come up
with 10 different ways to do it. In fact a client of mine currently bases their
whole company off of a CF 4.0 app I wrote almost 6yrs ago with little
modfication over the years. They use this app in a B-to-B relationship with a
Fortune 500 company and has kept them as a main supplier over other companies
10 times their size because of it. They support 500 district offices with
somewhere between 20,000 and 25,000 different locations with orders of at least
200 - 300 per week usually tracking 4-50 items per order. What makes CF better
is that I don't have to look at code from 6yrs ago and walk thru 2-3 pages of
it before I figure out what it was the code accomplished. I can also hire
someone with little experience and train them in months to be proficient and a
year or two to be great. You know what happens to most of the large .NET
projects I've seen? Takes longer than expected (ok so can most anything), they
didn't realize it would consume them every day, they end up having to write
more routines that accomplish what I can do in 2 commands, (browse the internet
all you want there aren't near enough routines that do what you want to do -
otherwise write an app that does everything and conquer the world)(with CF7 I
can make it navigate and look better easier using flash forms), and they have
to hire 2 more people to accomplish it than if they put me on the project. This
is not just one company doing this - nor inexperienced programmers, this is
multiple companies with guys who have more experience in C++ , VB, and SQL than
I do. They have been developing a .NET application for longer than I can
remember and it still isn't anywhere near where it would be had they hired
1-less guy and spent the money on CF. I'm done.

[Tom Jordahl]

> MX 7 is not a new server engine. Its just v6 with a few wrappers around

> existing java API's.

Wow. You just insulted me and my teams 1+ year of work on CFMX 7 in one
sentence.

That is SO uncool.

--
Tom Jordahl
Macromedia Server Development

[Tazar]

>>Wow. You just insulted me and my teams 1+ year of work on CFMX 7 in one
sentence.

I wouldn't take it as an insult as such. The point was that the development
was based largely around exposing freindlier inertface to existing java
API's and not so much in "new and innovative" technology development. The
comment trivialised things, I am sure, but the general point is, I think,
correct.

For sure, MX7 is not a new server engine - not at all.


"Tom Jordahl" <tomj@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:d2ha1v$ab7$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> > MX 7 is not a new server engine. Its just v6 with a few wrappers around
> > existing java API's.

>
> Wow. You just insulted me and my teams 1+ year of work on CFMX 7 in one
> sentence.
>
> That is SO uncool.
>
> --
> Tom Jordahl
> Macromedia Server Development
>
>