Totally CSS?

[Lance]

I'm using CSS more and more for my pages. Haven't used any XHTML yet. And I
haven't used Stylemaster (used the Topstyle demo, and it's pretty nice).

Check out [url]www.csszengarden.com[/url]. It's a page laid out entirely with CSS, and
they invited graphic designers to see just what they could do with the CSS
layout. Very nice.

If I remember correctly, [url]www.espn.com[/url] now uses CSS for it's home page, too.



--
Lance Goins
[url]http://makeashorterlink.com/?X165518A2[/url]


"shelton" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:bemh1o$jil$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Just wondering the opinion of folks on using CSS entirely to lay out

sites? I get the impression that this is the direction I should be going
to create valid code - to get away from tables.

>
> So far I have sort of picked up a little css on my own, by checking out

other peoples work and continue to expand my use of it. But.... I don't
know anything about xhtml and how to build sites entirely using xhtml and
css. I've done a bit of reading on the subject, but don't find anything
that sort of starts you from the beginning of the concept.

>
> What do you think about Stylemaster3? Is it worth trying out?
>
> Thanks for any advice and I hope this isn't something that's already been

thoroughly discussed here and I should have searched first. If so, my
apologies.

>
>

[Matthias Gutfeldt]

"shelton" [email]webforumsuser@macromedia.com[/email] wrote:

> Just wondering the opinion of folks on using CSS entirely
> to lay out sites? I get the impression that this is the
> direction I should be going to create valid code -
> to get away from tables.

Tables are valid. It's just not appropriate to use tables for layout.

> So far I have sort of picked up a little css on my own, by
> checking out other peoples work and continue to expand my
> use of it. But.... I don't know anything about xhtml and
> how to build sites entirely using xhtml and css.

This is a big misunderstanding, you don't have to use XHTML for CSS
layouts! Unless you want to take advantage of XHTML features, you can
use HTML4.01. On the other hand, XHTML isn't much different from HTML,
so if you're proficient in HTML there isn't much to learn. The main
differences are outlined at the W3C site:
<http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#diffs>.

> I've done a bit of reading on the subject, but don't find
> anything that sort of starts you from the beginning of the concept.

The concept is quite simple: Don't think of HTML as a layout language,
think of it as a markup language. The most important heading is marked
up as H1, normal text is marked up as P, lists are marked up with list
elements, etc. etc. - it's really MUCH simpler than HTML-"layout" :-).

And then, when your document is fully marked up, use CSS for the layout.

There are many fine tutorials on CSS layouts. I suggest you take a look
at the resources in the CSS-Discuss wiki: <http://css-discuss.incutio.com/>.


Matthias

[shelton webforumsuser@macromedia.com]

Well... I guess I'm a bit too cheap to pay for online articles, although I'm sure they are great and deserve a trade as any publication, but there's got to be free articles out there.

I also see Layout Master in addition Style Master. Maybe that's a good tool to unveil the mystery of laying out sites with CSS. But... I'll still need to investigate the (x) in xhtml.

[darrel]

> I get the impression that this is the direction I should be going to
create valid code - to get away from tables.

Remember that tables are perfectly valid code.

That said, CSS has some advantages, though it has its disadvantages as well.

It's good to learn, and do as much as you can with CSS. When reality
dictates you use the odd table, then you at least know when to use them.
Most sites I do these days use some very sparse tables and the rest
styled/layed out with CSS.

-Darrel

[Lance]

I haven't paid for any online articles, or seen any mentioned in this
thread.

I have links to more CSS info on the 'link' page of my site (url in the
sig).

--
Lance Goins
[url]http://makeashorterlink.com/?X165518A2[/url]


"shelton" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:bemkbg$qrg$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Well... I guess I'm a bit too cheap to pay for online articles, although

I'm sure they are great and deserve a trade as any publication, but there's
got to be free articles out there.

>
> I also see Layout Master in addition Style Master. Maybe that's a good

tool to unveil the mystery of laying out sites with CSS. But... I'll still
need to investigate the (x) in xhtml.

>
>

[Chris In Madison]

Superb article. Thanks for the link!

Best regards,
Chris

[Lori Byrne]

I am about where you are

Its hard to let go of tables isn't it?

I've been slowly making the transition. My sites contain more and more CSS
and less tables. I tend to pick which projects are best to try new things
on. Smaller static sites have been the ones where I've used almost all CSS
and I am slowly applying what I've learned to larger more complex sites.

This is what has worked for me.

Lori


"shelton" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:bemh1o$jil$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Just wondering the opinion of folks on using CSS entirely to lay out

sites? I get the impression that this is the direction I should be going
to create valid code - to get away from tables.

>
> So far I have sort of picked up a little css on my own, by checking out

other peoples work and continue to expand my use of it. But.... I don't
know anything about xhtml and how to build sites entirely using xhtml and
css. I've done a bit of reading on the subject, but don't find anything
that sort of starts you from the beginning of the concept.

>
> What do you think about Stylemaster3? Is it worth trying out?
>
> Thanks for any advice and I hope this isn't something that's already been

thoroughly discussed here and I should have searched first. If so, my
apologies.

>
>

[osgood]

>

>
> If I remember correctly, [url]www.espn.com[/url] now uses CSS for it's home page,
> too.
>
>
>

Try zooming the text in the browser on that site and see what happens.
You loose half the information.

Im not sure you should be taking the tehcnical design of this site too
seriously. Its been like that from launch and the designers still havent
put it right. That signals to me that they are just full of bullshit.

[DiMa]

Hm. I don't see a js error, nor do I get redirected, nor do I lose any content.
Guess I'm just special, eh?? :) But you already knew that... hehehe

Yeah, yeah...I know...syfkkh, DiMa :)

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"Murray *TMM*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
news:bemsrj$e96$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> I get a javascript error on the page, but I see no text zooming effect.
>
> I do get redirected to msn.espn.go.com however....
>
> --
> Murray --- ICQ 71997575
> Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
> (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
> ==================
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> ==================
>
> "DiMa" <diana@YOURHATANDCOATdimadesign.net> wrote in message
> news:bemscg$dfu$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> > > zoom the text in the browser to 150%, see the effect. Personally I think
> > > this article is not worth the paper its written on.

> >
> > I must be missing something, osgood...what effect are you talking about?
> >
> > --
> > --
> > DiMa
> > --------------------
> > WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to

> your

> > posts:
> > [url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url]
> > For Answers, check here first:
> >

>

[url]http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:macromedia.dreamwea ver[/url]

> > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/dreamweaver/technotes.html[/url]
> > [url]http://www.projectseven.com/faqbase[/url]
> > [url]http://www.dreamweaverFAQ.com[/url]
> >
> > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/etiquette.htm[/url]
> > DiMa Design > From Lines...to Designs
> > [url]http://www.dimadesign.net[/url]
> >
> >
> > "osgood" <notavailable@thisaddress.com> wrote in message
> > news:bemqfm$80h$2@forums.macromedia.com...

> > > Lance wrote:
> > >
> > > > I read an article that interviewed the lead web designer for espn.com.
> > > > Just found it again on google. Here's the link:
> > > > [url]http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2003/espn-interview/01/[/url]
> > > >
> > > > "Our traffic fluctuates with popular sports being in or out of season,

> but

> > > > throughout the year, we get anywhere from about 1 to 1.3 billion page
> > > > views
> > > > per month. This is for all ESPN-owned sites. For just our site on the
> > > > ESPN.com domain, we average anywhere from about a half a billion to

> 950

> > > > million page views per month."
> > > >
> > > > I like this statement on worrying about all the users with old

> browsers:

> > > >
> > > > "For better or for worse, we have every right to not consider the
> > > > non-upgrader person in our design decisions. ESPN.com allows

> customers,

> > > > free-of-charge, to use our vast online sports resource in exchange for

> one

> > > > thing: exposure to advertising and sponsorships. This is how TV works,

> and

> > > > this is also basically how newspapers and magazines work as well. By
> > > > embracing standards as we have done, and dropping support for those

> who

> > > > choose not to support standards, we are free to produce pages with

> leaner

> > > > code, better advertising opportunities, and an overall better user
> > > > experience. To the extent that we can put our limited resources to

> work

> > > > producing a greater quantity of pages, which load faster, and look
> > > > better to
> > > > 98% of our viewers, we feel we have the right to make that choice."
> > > > It's a good article, worth checking out.
> > > >
> > > >

> >

> > >

> >
> >

>
>

[shelton webforumsuser@macromedia.com]

800 x 600 gets a horizontal scroll on the site as well. I guess that's all part of their "bringing people along" position.

[Matthias Gutfeldt]

Lance schrieb:

>
> I read an article that interviewed the lead web designer for espn.com.
> Just found it again on google. Here's the link:
> [url]http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2003/espn-interview/01/[/url]

The website simply doesn't live up to the expectations you get from
reading the article. Standards compliance is more involved than
replacing tables-based layout with CSS layout. The site is also rather
inaccessible and requires both Flash and Javascript. You don't need a
standards compliant browser to view the site, you need an ESPN compliant
browser.

For an IMHO better example you should look at <http://wired.com/>. Some
pages on that site do have some validation issues, but they're minor
compared to ESPN, and the site is far more accessible.


Matthias

[DiMa]

LOL :) Danielle got one yesterday at the grocery store and she dropped it on
the floor after one bite. I gasped and crossed myself and the woman standing
next to us laughed so hard she spit hers 3 feet in the air! :) Poor
Daniellley!!

--
--
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"Murray *TMM*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
news:bemvu1$jo7$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> DiMa:
>
> GKK?
>
> (got KrispyKreme?)
>
> --
> Murray --- ICQ 71997575
> Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
> (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
> ==================
> [url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url] - THE BEST WAY TO GET
> ANSWERS
> ==================
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> [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/[/url] - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
> ==================
>
> "DiMa" <diana@YOURHATANDCOATdimadesign.net> wrote in message
> news:bemvo9$jcp$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> > Hm. I don't see a js error, nor do I get redirected, nor do I lose any

> content.

> > Guess I'm just special, eh?? :) But you already knew that... hehehe
> >
> > Yeah, yeah...I know...syfkkh, DiMa :)
> >
> > --
> > --
> > DiMa
> > --------------------
> > WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to

> your

> > posts:
> > [url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url]
> > For Answers, check here first:
> >

>

[url]http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:macromedia.dreamwea ver[/url]

> > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/dreamweaver/technotes.html[/url]
> > [url]http://www.projectseven.com/faqbase[/url]
> > [url]http://www.dreamweaverFAQ.com[/url]
> >
> > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/etiquette.htm[/url]
> > DiMa Design > From Lines...to Designs
> > [url]http://www.dimadesign.net[/url]
> >
> >
> > "Murray *TMM*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
> > news:bemsrj$e96$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> > > I get a javascript error on the page, but I see no text zooming effect.
> > >
> > > I do get redirected to msn.espn.go.com however....
> > >
> > > --
> > > Murray --- ICQ 71997575
> > > Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
> > > (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
> > > ==================
> > > [url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url] - THE BEST WAY TO

> GET

> > > ANSWERS
> > > ==================
> > > [url]http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com[/url] - Template Triage!
> > > [url]http://www.projectseven.com/go[/url] - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
> > > [url]http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com[/url] - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
> > > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/[/url] - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
> > > ==================
> > >
> > > "DiMa" <diana@YOURHATANDCOATdimadesign.net> wrote in message
> > > news:bemscg$dfu$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> > > > > zoom the text in the browser to 150%, see the effect. Personally I

> think

> > > > > this article is not worth the paper its written on.
> > > >
> > > > I must be missing something, osgood...what effect are you talking

> about?

> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > --
> > > > DiMa
> > > > --------------------
> > > > WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to
> > > your
> > > > posts:
> > > > [url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url]
> > > > For Answers, check here first:
> > > >
> > >

> >

>

[url]http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:macromedia.dreamwea ver[/url]

> > > > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/dreamweaver/technotes.html[/url]
> > > > [url]http://www.projectseven.com/faqbase[/url]
> > > > [url]http://www.dreamweaverFAQ.com[/url]
> > > >
> > > > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/etiquette.htm[/url]
> > > > DiMa Design > From Lines...to Designs
> > > > [url]http://www.dimadesign.net[/url]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "osgood" <notavailable@thisaddress.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bemqfm$80h$2@forums.macromedia.com...
> > > > > Lance wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I read an article that interviewed the lead web designer for

> espn.com.

> > > > > > Just found it again on google. Here's the link:
> > > > > > [url]http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2003/espn-interview/01/[/url]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Our traffic fluctuates with popular sports being in or out of

> season,

> > > but
> > > > > > throughout the year, we get anywhere from about 1 to 1.3 billion

> page

> > > > > > views
> > > > > > per month. This is for all ESPN-owned sites. For just our site on

> the

> > > > > > ESPN.com domain, we average anywhere from about a half a billion

> to

> > > 950
> > > > > > million page views per month."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I like this statement on worrying about all the users with old
> > > browsers:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "For better or for worse, we have every right to not consider the
> > > > > > non-upgrader person in our design decisions. ESPN.com allows
> > > customers,
> > > > > > free-of-charge, to use our vast online sports resource in exchange

> for

> > > one
> > > > > > thing: exposure to advertising and sponsorships. This is how TV

> works,

> > > and
> > > > > > this is also basically how newspapers and magazines work as well.

> By

> > > > > > embracing standards as we have done, and dropping support for

> those

> > > who
> > > > > > choose not to support standards, we are free to produce pages with
> > > leaner
> > > > > > code, better advertising opportunities, and an overall better user
> > > > > > experience. To the extent that we can put our limited resources to
> > > work
> > > > > > producing a greater quantity of pages, which load faster, and look
> > > > > > better to
> > > > > > 98% of our viewers, we feel we have the right to make that

> choice."

> > > > > > It's a good article, worth checking out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >

> >
> >

>
>

[DiMa]

If fail the 5 second rule because we both just stood there and stared at it. I
mean, what else does one do when one drops the Bread of Life to the supermarket
floor??? I swear I heard scary music in the background as we stood there in
obvious horror!

At least Danielle has a "cool" mom (I was told as much) and I got her another.
And THIS time she ate it while sitting at a table! ;)

--
--
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"Murray *TMM*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
news:ben2t0$om8$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> DiMa:
>
> Did it fail the 5 second rule? Or do you use a modified 5 second rule out
> there?
>
> --
> Murray --- ICQ 71997575
> ==================
>
> "DiMa" <diana@YOURHATANDCOATdimadesign.net> wrote in message
> news:ben27o$nkh$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> > LOL :) Danielle got one yesterday at the grocery store and she dropped it

> on

> > the floor after one bite. I gasped and crossed myself and the woman

> standing

> > next to us laughed so hard she spit hers 3 feet in the air! :) Poor
> > Daniellley!!
> >

>
>

[ranjan - dreamlettes]

Espn has used px font sizes.

IE doesn't scale px. So if you use IE and try to zoom text nothing happens.

Moz (and all Gecko based browsers)and Opera scale px font sizes too. ESPN
layout doesn't hold good in these browsers with text zoom.

Regards

Ranjan
[url]www.dreamlettes.net[/url]


"DiMa" <diana@YOURHATANDCOATdimadesign.net> wrote in message
news:bemvo9$jcp$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Hm. I don't see a js error, nor do I get redirected, nor do I lose any

content.

> Guess I'm just special, eh?? :) But you already knew that... hehehe
>
> Yeah, yeah...I know...syfkkh, DiMa :)
>
> --
> --
> DiMa
> --------------------
> WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to

your

> posts:
> [url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url]
> For Answers, check here first:
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> [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/dreamweaver/technotes.html[/url]
> [url]http://www.projectseven.com/faqbase[/url]
> [url]http://www.dreamweaverFAQ.com[/url]
>
> [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/etiquette.htm[/url]
> DiMa Design > From Lines...to Designs
> [url]http://www.dimadesign.net[/url]
>
>
> "Murray *TMM*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
> news:bemsrj$e96$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> > I get a javascript error on the page, but I see no text zooming effect.
> >
> > I do get redirected to msn.espn.go.com however....
> >
> > --
> > Murray --- ICQ 71997575
> > Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
> > (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
> > ==================
> > [url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url] - THE BEST WAY TO

GET

> > ANSWERS
> > ==================
> > [url]http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com[/url] - Template Triage!
> > [url]http://www.projectseven.com/go[/url] - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
> > [url]http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com[/url] - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
> > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/[/url] - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
> > ==================
> >
> > "DiMa" <diana@YOURHATANDCOATdimadesign.net> wrote in message
> > news:bemscg$dfu$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> > > > zoom the text in the browser to 150%, see the effect. Personally I

think

> > > > this article is not worth the paper its written on.
> > >
> > > I must be missing something, osgood...what effect are you talking

about?

> > >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > DiMa
> > > --------------------
> > > WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to

> > your

> > > posts:
> > > [url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url]
> > > For Answers, check here first:
> > >

> >

>

[url]http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:macromedia.dreamwea ver[/url]

> > > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/dreamweaver/technotes.html[/url]
> > > [url]http://www.projectseven.com/faqbase[/url]
> > > [url]http://www.dreamweaverFAQ.com[/url]
> > >
> > > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/etiquette.htm[/url]
> > > DiMa Design > From Lines...to Designs
> > > [url]http://www.dimadesign.net[/url]
> > >
> > >
> > > "osgood" <notavailable@thisaddress.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bemqfm$80h$2@forums.macromedia.com...
> > > > Lance wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I read an article that interviewed the lead web designer for

espn.com.

> > > > > Just found it again on google. Here's the link:
> > > > > [url]http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2003/espn-interview/01/[/url]
> > > > >
> > > > > "Our traffic fluctuates with popular sports being in or out of

season,

> > but

> > > > > throughout the year, we get anywhere from about 1 to 1.3 billion

page

> > > > > views
> > > > > per month. This is for all ESPN-owned sites. For just our site on

the

> > > > > ESPN.com domain, we average anywhere from about a half a billion

to

> > 950

> > > > > million page views per month."
> > > > >
> > > > > I like this statement on worrying about all the users with old

> > browsers:

> > > > >
> > > > > "For better or for worse, we have every right to not consider the
> > > > > non-upgrader person in our design decisions. ESPN.com allows

> > customers,

> > > > > free-of-charge, to use our vast online sports resource in exchange

for

> > one

> > > > > thing: exposure to advertising and sponsorships. This is how TV

works,

> > and

> > > > > this is also basically how newspapers and magazines work as well.

By

> > > > > embracing standards as we have done, and dropping support for

those

> > who

> > > > > choose not to support standards, we are free to produce pages with

> > leaner

> > > > > code, better advertising opportunities, and an overall better user
> > > > > experience. To the extent that we can put our limited resources to

> > work

> > > > > producing a greater quantity of pages, which load faster, and look
> > > > > better to
> > > > > 98% of our viewers, we feel we have the right to make that

choice."

> > > > > It's a good article, worth checking out.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >

> >
> >

>
>

[Murray *TMM*]

Ranjan:

Yes - thanks.

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
==================
[url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url] - THE BEST WAY TO GET
ANSWERS
==================
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[url]http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com[/url] - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
[url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/[/url] - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
==================

"ranjan - dreamlettes" <ranjan@NOSPAMdreamlettes.net> wrote in message
news:ben4hn$rc5$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Espn has used px font sizes.
>
> IE doesn't scale px. So if you use IE and try to zoom text nothing

happens.

>
> Moz (and all Gecko based browsers)and Opera scale px font sizes too. ESPN
> layout doesn't hold good in these browsers with text zoom.
>
> Regards
>
> Ranjan
> [url]www.dreamlettes.net[/url]
>
>
> "DiMa" <diana@YOURHATANDCOATdimadesign.net> wrote in message
> news:bemvo9$jcp$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> > Hm. I don't see a js error, nor do I get redirected, nor do I lose any

> content.

> > Guess I'm just special, eh?? :) But you already knew that... hehehe
> >
> > Yeah, yeah...I know...syfkkh, DiMa :)
> >
> > --
> > --
> > DiMa
> > --------------------
> > WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to

> your

> > posts:
> > [url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url]
> > For Answers, check here first:
> >

>

[url]http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:macromedia.dreamwea ver[/url]

> > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/dreamweaver/technotes.html[/url]
> > [url]http://www.projectseven.com/faqbase[/url]
> > [url]http://www.dreamweaverFAQ.com[/url]
> >
> > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/etiquette.htm[/url]
> > DiMa Design > From Lines...to Designs
> > [url]http://www.dimadesign.net[/url]
> >
> >
> > "Murray *TMM*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
> > news:bemsrj$e96$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> > > I get a javascript error on the page, but I see no text zooming

effect.

> > >
> > > I do get redirected to msn.espn.go.com however....
> > >
> > > --
> > > Murray --- ICQ 71997575
> > > Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
> > > (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
> > > ==================
> > > [url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url] - THE BEST WAY TO

> GET

> > > ANSWERS
> > > ==================
> > > [url]http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com[/url] - Template Triage!
> > > [url]http://www.projectseven.com/go[/url] - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
> > > [url]http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com[/url] - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
> > > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/[/url] - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
> > > ==================
> > >
> > > "DiMa" <diana@YOURHATANDCOATdimadesign.net> wrote in message
> > > news:bemscg$dfu$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> > > > > zoom the text in the browser to 150%, see the effect. Personally I

> think

> > > > > this article is not worth the paper its written on.
> > > >
> > > > I must be missing something, osgood...what effect are you talking

> about?

> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > --
> > > > DiMa
> > > > --------------------
> > > > WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies

to

> > > your
> > > > posts:
> > > > [url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url]
> > > > For Answers, check here first:
> > > >
> > >

> >

>

[url]http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:macromedia.dreamwea ver[/url]

> > > > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/dreamweaver/technotes.html[/url]
> > > > [url]http://www.projectseven.com/faqbase[/url]
> > > > [url]http://www.dreamweaverFAQ.com[/url]
> > > >
> > > > [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/etiquette.htm[/url]
> > > > DiMa Design > From Lines...to Designs
> > > > [url]http://www.dimadesign.net[/url]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "osgood" <notavailable@thisaddress.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bemqfm$80h$2@forums.macromedia.com...
> > > > > Lance wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I read an article that interviewed the lead web designer for

> espn.com.

> > > > > > Just found it again on google. Here's the link:
> > > > > > [url]http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2003/espn-interview/01/[/url]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Our traffic fluctuates with popular sports being in or out of

> season,

> > > but
> > > > > > throughout the year, we get anywhere from about 1 to 1.3 billion

> page

> > > > > > views
> > > > > > per month. This is for all ESPN-owned sites. For just our site

on

> the

> > > > > > ESPN.com domain, we average anywhere from about a half a billion

> to

> > > 950
> > > > > > million page views per month."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I like this statement on worrying about all the users with old
> > > browsers:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "For better or for worse, we have every right to not consider

the

> > > > > > non-upgrader person in our design decisions. ESPN.com allows
> > > customers,
> > > > > > free-of-charge, to use our vast online sports resource in

exchange

> for

> > > one
> > > > > > thing: exposure to advertising and sponsorships. This is how TV

> works,

> > > and
> > > > > > this is also basically how newspapers and magazines work as

well.

> By

> > > > > > embracing standards as we have done, and dropping support for

> those

> > > who
> > > > > > choose not to support standards, we are free to produce pages

with

> > > leaner
> > > > > > code, better advertising opportunities, and an overall better

user

> > > > > > experience. To the extent that we can put our limited resources

to

> > > work
> > > > > > producing a greater quantity of pages, which load faster, and

look

> > > > > > better to
> > > > > > 98% of our viewers, we feel we have the right to make that

> choice."

> > > > > > It's a good article, worth checking out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >

> >
> >

>
>

[Murray *TMM*]

DiMa:

You mean you left it there and didn't just eat the non-floor contact part of
it. Why, I have left nose-prints on the floor while doing that with other
KK adventures....

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
==================

"DiMa" <diana@YOURHATANDCOATdimadesign.net> wrote in message
news:ben3io$ppu$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> If fail the 5 second rule because we both just stood there and stared at

it. I

> mean, what else does one do when one drops the Bread of Life to the

supermarket

> floor??? I swear I heard scary music in the background as we stood there

in

> obvious horror!
>
> At least Danielle has a "cool" mom (I was told as much) and I got her

another.

> And THIS time she ate it while sitting at a table! ;)

[Steve Fleischer]

"DiMa" <diana@YOURHATANDCOATdimadesign.net> wrote in news:ben3io$ppu$1
@forums.macromedia.com:

> the Bread of Life

ROFL!

--
Steve
Hong Kong

[Al Sparber- PVII]

"shelton" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:bemkbg$qrg$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Well... I guess I'm a bit too cheap to pay for online articles, although

I'm sure they are great and deserve a trade as any publication, but there's
got to be free articles out there.

We'd be embarassed to charge $1.99 for a tutorial or article, LOL.

We do have several recent ones involving CSS that are pertinent to the
subject at hand. You might also consider Jeffrey Zeldman's latest book, as
well as our E-Book (Dreamweaver MX: Building on Solid Foundations). You can
download a free chapter on our site and that particular chapter happens to
be one that focuses on the separation of structure from presentation.


--
Al Sparber - PVII
[url]http://www.projectseven.com[/url]
Dreamweaver Extensions - DesignPacks - Tutorials - Books
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[Al Sparber- PVII]

Osgood,

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the ESPN site. I wasn't aware that
anyone interviewed them and would be shocked if the interview were positive
or congratulatory in nature.

I still think you've got the subject of CSS not quite clear yet in that a
site "designed totally <with> CSS" does not preclude tables (which is what I
think you mean). With that said, it is certainly possible to produce a
gorgeous site using very modern techniques, with or without tables. How you
do it depends on what you want to achieve.

This kind of thinking gets newbies polarized and perhaps eggs css authors on
to force themselves to attempt really cool designs just to prove that CSS
can be pretty. There is nothing to prove. I swear there isn't :-)

--
Al Sparber - PVII
[url]http://www.projectseven.com[/url]
Dreamweaver Extensions - DesignPacks - Tutorials - Books
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The PVII Newsgroup | [url]news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev[/url]
The CSS Newsgroup | [url]news://forums.projectseven.com/css[/url]
---------------------------------------------------------------------

> Ive yet to see a good creatively designed site totally produced in css.
> I keep asking for people to point me to one on this forum but without
> any response. Yes, you can create a simple two column affair, which will
> work beautifully but beyond that it becomes more difficult to implement.
> As such, good sites totally constructed by css, that actually passes
> basic tests, are sadly lacking.

[osgood]

>

> Osgood - I had no idea you were talking about the ESPN site! I thought you
> meant the site on which the article was presented. Sorry...didn't even
> LOOK at
> the espn site. Still haven't. And wont :

Dima,

I dont often get annoyed but there was so much publicity about the ESPN
site when it went totally css. Great if it works, but it doesnt. It
doesnt because the so called designers dont understand the very basics
of how a web page works when using <divs>.

Even a snotty nosed schoolboy, in year 1, knows you dont put absolutely
positioned divs, filled with text directly beneath one another.

Before they go shouting their mouths off about how good it is and before
other people, who shall remain namless, give it time and interview
space, they should damn well check it out more carefully.

A website that fails to work when the browser zoom tool is engaged is to
me as bad as those people who jump up and down because a page is
non-standards compatible and wont pass the validation test, worse infact.

If I was the client who commissioned that site to be re-vamped and they
came back with garbage like that they would either have to get it right
or forego any payment. The only reason they dont, wont or cant get it
right is because they are lousy inhouse designers who quite frankily
dont have to get it right. Anyone with that unprofessional attitude
obviously cant be taken seriously. As such the site, the people who
designed the site and anyone who credits the site as being a good
example of a site totally created by using css in my view carries no
credibility whatsoever.

Ive yet to see a good creatively designed site totally produced in css.
I keep asking for people to point me to one on this forum but without
any response. Yes, you can create a simple two column affair, which will
work beautifully but beyond that it becomes more difficult to implement.
As such, good sites totally constructed by css, that actually passes
basic tests, are sadly lacking.