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what happened to freeswan? - Debian

Rene isn't answering my mails. What happened to the FreeS/WAN kernel patches? kernel-patch-freeswan-ext is gone, and kernel-patch-freeswan is back to 1.96 (with 1.99 being the current version). Moreover, freeswan-modules-source seems to be new. I hope that Debian doesn't expect people to run FreeS/WAN only as a module. Most of my productive machines don't have module support, so I'd be doomed. -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them! .''`. martin f. krafft <madduckdebian.org> : :' : proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than ...

  1. #1

    Default what happened to freeswan?

    Rene isn't answering my mails. What happened to the FreeS/WAN kernel
    patches? kernel-patch-freeswan-ext is gone, and
    kernel-patch-freeswan is back to 1.96 (with 1.99 being the current
    version). Moreover, freeswan-modules-source seems to be new.

    I hope that Debian doesn't expect people to run FreeS/WAN only as
    a module. Most of my productive machines don't have module support,
    so I'd be doomed.

    --
    Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them!

    .''`. martin f. krafft <madduckdebian.org>
    : :' : proud Debian developer, admin, and user
    `. `'`
    `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system

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    martin f krafft Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: what happened to freeswan?

    On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 02:59:04PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
    > Rene isn't answering my mails. What happened to the FreeS/WAN kernel
    > patches? kernel-patch-freeswan-ext is gone, and
    > kernel-patch-freeswan is back to 1.96 (with 1.99 being the current
    > version). Moreover, freeswan-modules-source seems to be new.
    >
    > I hope that Debian doesn't expect people to run FreeS/WAN only as
    > a module. Most of my productive machines don't have module support,
    > so I'd be doomed.
    Yeah, I'm not too happy about how freeswan is handled right now, either.
    Basically, all the changes you're seeing are the result of the packaging
    of freeswan 2.0, as far as I can tell. There was a debconf note shown
    during, IIRC, the installation of the latest freeswan userland package.
    It warned of all the stuff you're complaining about.

    Fortunately we won't need freeswan anymore, once Linux 2.6 is out (or if
    you want to use linux 2.5). But still, I thought the old freeswan
    packages worked very well, and the new changes do seem to sacrifice some
    of the package's usefulness to me.

    noah


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    Noah L. Meyerhans Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: what happened to freeswan?

    also sprach Noah L. Meyerhans <noahmdebian.org> [2003.07.13.1935 +0200]:
    > Yeah, I'm not too happy about how freeswan is handled right now, either.
    I just talked to Rene. the 1.99 to 2.0 switch requires a rewrite of
    the kernel-patch. Thus it will take a little longer. But there will
    be a kernel patch. Thanks, Rene!
    > Fortunately we won't need freeswan anymore, once Linux 2.6 is out
    > (or if you want to use linux 2.5). But still, I thought the old
    > freeswan packages worked very well, and the new changes do seem to
    > sacrifice some of the package's usefulness to me.
    I am not going to convert to 2.6 immediately, nor will I trust its
    IPsec implementation from day one. Thus I am happy to use FreeS/WAN
    for another year or more. Aside, I like FreeS/WAN!

    --
    Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them!

    .''`. martin f. krafft <madduckdebian.org>
    : :' : proud Debian developer, admin, and user
    `. `'`
    `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system

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    martin f krafft Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: what happened to freeswan?

    also sprach Mike Fedyk <mfedykmatchmail.com> [2003.07.15.2304 +0200]:
    > Unfortunately, what they are doing to keep the possibility of the
    > US government trying to take action against them, has caused the
    > mainline kernel developers to refuse to include their work in the
    > mainline kernel.
    I haven't followed this at all. Is there a comprehensive link?
    > I'm going to be using freeswan for a while also, but I'm going to
    > be helping to test 2.6-test ipsec to make sure it will be useful
    > at 2.6.0. :)
    Of course I will do the same. I am interested in using "native"
    stuff whereever possible. However, primarily I need functionality,
    and FreeS/WAN has been providing that. I will and am already testing
    2.6 IPsec on test boxes, what I meant is that it will take a while
    before I entrust my infrastructure to it.

    PS: Please respect Mail-Followup-To. I don't want CCs on mailing
    list posts.

    --
    Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them!

    .''`. martin f. krafft <madduckdebian.org>
    : :' : proud Debian developer, admin, and user
    `. `'`
    `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system

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    martin f krafft Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: what happened to freeswan?

    On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 11:28:30PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
    > also sprach Mike Fedyk <mfedykmatchmail.com> [2003.07.15.2304 +0200]:
    > > Unfortunately, what they are doing to keep the possibility of the
    > > US government trying to take action against them, has caused the
    > > mainline kernel developers to refuse to include their work in the
    > > mainline kernel.
    >
    > I haven't followed this at all. Is there a comprehensive link?
    If you read the mailing list you'll see many flame wars about this. Also,
    it was mentioned on LKML before the competing IPsec was merged too.
    >
    > > I'm going to be using freeswan for a while also, but I'm going to
    > > be helping to test 2.6-test ipsec to make sure it will be useful
    > > at 2.6.0. :)
    >
    > Of course I will do the same. I am interested in using "native"
    > stuff whereever possible. However, primarily I need functionality,
    > and FreeS/WAN has been providing that. I will and am already testing
    > 2.6 IPsec on test boxes, what I meant is that it will take a while
    > before I entrust my infrastructure to it.
    >
    > PS: Please respect Mail-Followup-To. I don't want CCs on mailing
    > list posts.
    #No Duplicates!
    :0 Wh: msgid.lock
    | formail -D 32768 msgid.cache

    With this, it never bothers me. But yes I'll press "L" instead.


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    Mike Fedyk Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: what happened to freeswan?

    also sprach Mike Fedyk <mfedykmatchmail.com> [2003.07.15.2358 +0200]:
    > If you read the mailing list you'll see many flame wars about
    > this. Also, it was mentioned on LKML before the competing IPsec
    > was merged too.
    I don't read either anymore. I guess I'll get at the archives when
    I have some time.
    > > PS: Please respect Mail-Followup-To. I don't want CCs on mailing
    > > list posts.
    >
    > #No Duplicates!
    > :0 Wh: msgid.lock
    > | formail -D 32768 msgid.cache
    >
    > With this, it never bothers me. But yes I'll press "L" instead.
    Sure, but guess which mail arrives second... the direct personal
    mail, or the list mail. And guess which mail I would like to
    actually read (has to do with where procmail shoves it...)

    --
    Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them!

    .''`. martin f. krafft <madduckdebian.org>
    : :' : proud Debian developer, admin, and user
    `. `'`
    `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system

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    martin f krafft Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: what happened to freeswan?

    On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 12:02:53AM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
    > also sprach Mike Fedyk <mfedykmatchmail.com> [2003.07.15.2358 +0200]:
    > > If you read the mailing list you'll see many flame wars about
    > > this. Also, it was mentioned on LKML before the competing IPsec
    > > was merged too.
    >
    > I don't read either anymore. I guess I'll get at the archives when
    > I have some time.
    Yeah, I haven't kept up with the lists, but it's been like that since the
    beginning so it shouldn't be hard to find...
    >
    > > > PS: Please respect Mail-Followup-To. I don't want CCs on mailing
    > > > list posts.
    > >
    > > #No Duplicates!
    > > :0 Wh: msgid.lock
    > > | formail -D 32768 msgid.cache
    > >
    > > With this, it never bothers me. But yes I'll press "L" instead.
    >
    > Sure, but guess which mail arrives second... the direct personal
    > mail, or the list mail. And guess which mail I would like to
    > actually read (has to do with where procmail shoves it...)
    Both messages will be identical except for the "Received" headers! Procmail
    should put both in the same place, since if the message is addressed to you,
    and the list, both messages will have the same contents in To: and Cc:.
    They will even have the same Message-ID: which is why the above two lines
    work in procmail.

    Anyway, if you put those two lines near the top of your procmailrc, you
    won't have to even think about duplicates. :)


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    Mike Fedyk Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: what happened to freeswan?

    On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 04:02:42PM -0700, Mike Fedyk wrote:
    > Both messages will be identical except for the "Received" headers!
    > Procmail should put both in the same place, since if the message is
    > addressed to you, and the list, both messages will have the same
    > contents in To: and Cc:. They will even have the same Message-ID:
    > which is why the above two lines work in procmail.
    Not if you sort your mail by list headers rather than unreliable To: or
    Cc: header lines.

    --
    Jamin W. Collins

    Linux is not The Answer. Yes is the answer. Linux is The Question. - Neo


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    Jamin W. Collins Guest

  9. #9

    Default OT: why I don't want CCs

    also sprach Mike Fedyk <mfedykmatchmail.com> [2003.07.16.0102 +0200]:
    > Both messages will be identical except for the "Received" headers!
    > Procmail should put both in the same place, since if the message
    > is addressed to you, and the list, both messages will have the
    > same contents in To: and Cc:. They will even have the same
    > Message-ID: which is why the above two lines work in procmail.
    I filter on Delivered-To:, which is the only sane and portable way.
    And that won't be identical on both mails.
    > Anyway, if you put those two lines near the top of your
    > procmailrc, you won't have to even think about duplicates. :)
    As I said, then my private mailbox will be cluttered with stuff that
    really should be in my listbox. And my mail archival system will
    store debian-user mail in my private archives, making them
    unneceesarily bloated and difficult to search later on.

    I have given hours of thought to this issue, I have known about
    msgid.cache ever since I started using procmail (it was one of the
    main reasons), and yet, I consciously decided against it because it
    *does not* do what I want.

    I even include a line pertaining to this in every mail I send. It's
    not too much to ask, is it?

    --
    Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them!

    .''`. martin f. krafft <madduckdebian.org>
    : :' : proud Debian developer, admin, and user
    `. `'`
    `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system

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    martin f krafft Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: what happened to freeswan?

    On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 05:17:01PM -0600, Jamin W. Collins wrote:
    > On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 04:02:42PM -0700, Mike Fedyk wrote:
    >
    > > Both messages will be identical except for the "Received" headers!
    > > Procmail should put both in the same place, since if the message is
    > > addressed to you, and the list, both messages will have the same
    > > contents in To: and Cc:. They will even have the same Message-ID:
    > > which is why the above two lines work in procmail.
    >
    > Not if you sort your mail by list headers rather than unreliable To: or
    > Cc: header lines.
    Just use the TO_ abbreviation as shown in the manpage.


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    Mike Fedyk Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

    On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 01:20:32AM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
    > As I said, then my private mailbox will be cluttered with stuff that
    > really should be in my listbox. And my mail archival system will
    If it goes to a list, then it goes in my list folder, not my personal inbox
    even if i'm in the to: or cc:.

    Then I setup mutt to change the color of messages that have me in the to: or
    cc:.
    > store debian-user mail in my private archives, making them
    > unneceesarily bloated and difficult to search later on.
    >
    Yep, but I still don't have that problem.
    > I even include a line pertaining to this in every mail I send. It's
    > not too much to ask, is it?
    >
    > --
    > Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them!
    Yep, you're right. Didn't notice the light green, (I rarely read sigs).

    Please let's not start a flamewar. I won't cc you anymore since you read
    the lists all of the time.
    >
    > .''`. martin f. krafft <madduckdebian.org>
    > : :' : proud Debian developer, admin, and user
    > `. `'`
    > `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
    >
    > Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
    Though, it is a nice one!

    :)

    Mike


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    Mike Fedyk Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: what happened to freeswan?

    "Jamin W. Collins" <jcollinsasgardsrealm.net> writes:
    > Not if you sort your mail by list headers rather than unreliable To: or
    > Cc: header lines.
    Obviously both are unreliable. So sort on both.

    --
    Alan Shutko <atsacm.org> - I am the rocks.
    "Oh boy, I'm supposed to speak Italian." -- Sam Beckett


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    Alan Shutko Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: what happened to freeswan?

    On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 11:28:30PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
    > also sprach Mike Fedyk <mfedykmatchmail.com> [2003.07.15.2304 +0200]:
    > > Unfortunately, what they are doing to keep the possibility of the
    > > US government trying to take action against them, has caused the
    > > mainline kernel developers to refuse to include their work in the
    > > mainline kernel.
    >
    > I haven't followed this at all. Is there a comprehensive link?
    Basically what's happening is that FreeS/WAN very emphatically refuses
    to accept any contributions from US citizens. The David Miller, who is
    basically *the* Linux network stack guru, is a US citizen, freeswan's
    position didn't sit well with him. Of course, the kernel developers
    could have forked freeswan; why they didn't I don't know.

    Basically, you have to look at freeswan as a political statement as much
    as as a security tool. If you know much about security, you can easily
    see why opportunistic encryption, which is basically where freeswan
    fucuses its efforts, is useless as a security tool. They're doing it
    for the politics, with security as a side effect. This isn't
    surprising, when you look at what the freeswan founder has done in the
    past.

    I'm not saying that I don't trust FreeS/WAN's security or the people who
    develop it, or that I disagree with the politics. FreeS/WAN is a very
    well written piece of code that I use regularly.

    One cool thing to note is that Herbert Xu has created patches for the
    freeswan userland code that allow it to work with KLIPS or the native
    Linux IPsec. That way you should be able to gradually move to the new
    IPsec code, rather than have to worry about changing (and configuring
    and debugging) the userland and kernel stuff at once. See the linux-net
    archives for more info on this.

    noah


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    Noah L. Meyerhans Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: what happened to freeswan?

    Noah L. Meyerhans writes:
    > Basically what's happening is that FreeS/WAN very emphatically refuses to
    > accept any contributions from US citizens.
    That's utterly asinine. If true it is sufficient reason for me to never
    use FreeS/WAN.
    --
    John Hasler
    [email]johndhh.gt.org[/email]
    Dancing Horse Hill
    Elmwood, Wisconsin


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    John Hasler Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: what happened to freeswan?

    On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 08:12:05PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
    > Noah L. Meyerhans writes:
    > > Basically what's happening is that FreeS/WAN very emphatically refuses to
    > > accept any contributions from US citizens.
    >
    > That's utterly asinine. If true it is sufficient reason for me to never
    > use FreeS/WAN.
    It's very true. But don't take my word for it it's all over the freeswan
    mailing lists, ever since I started checking it out a couple years ago...


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    Mike Fedyk Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: what happened to freeswan?

    On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 06:46:03PM -0500, Alan Shutko wrote:
    > "Jamin W. Collins" <jcollinsasgardsrealm.net> writes:
    >
    > > Not if you sort your mail by list headers rather than unreliable To: or
    > > Cc: header lines.
    >
    > Obviously both are unreliable. So sort on both.
    Since when is a list header from a known list "unreliable"?

    --
    Jamin W. Collins


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    Jamin W. Collins Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

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    On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 05:14:08PM -0700, Mike Fedyk wrote:
    > Please let's not start a flamewar. I won't cc you anymore since you read
    > the lists all of the time.
    Better yet, don't CC unless someone has requested that you do through
    the accepted methods of using Followup-To...

    - --
    .''`. Paul Johnson <balooursine.ca>
    : :' : proud Debian admin and user
    `. `'`
    `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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    Paul Johnson Guest

  18. #18

    Default Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

    On Tuesday 15 July 2003 23:07, Paul Johnson wrote:
    > On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 05:14:08PM -0700, Mike Fedyk wrote:
    > > Please let's not start a flamewar. I won't cc you anymore since you read
    > > the lists all of the time.
    >
    > Better yet, don't CC unless someone has requested that you do through
    > the accepted methods of using Followup-To...
    Just saw this thread. It brings up a point that I've wondered about. To
    respond to this list I have to hit the Reply-All button. Then I have to
    clean out other recipients other than the list address. IF I just use the
    Reply button, the person, not the list, is entered into the To: field. PITA.
    I use KMail - is it being lame? (I've got "learn Mutt" on my todo list -
    started playing with it tonight.)
    --
    Mike Mueller


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    MJM Guest

  19. #19

    Default Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

    On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 12:08:58AM -0400, MJM wrote:
    | On Tuesday 15 July 2003 23:07, Paul Johnson wrote:
    | > On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 05:14:08PM -0700, Mike Fedyk wrote:

    Regarding sorting both copies to the list box ... that doesn't really
    work effectively. (one of) The best method(s) for identifying list
    mail is the List-* headers (or X-Maililng-List for lists managed by
    old MLMs). The duplicate copy doesn't have such a header because it
    didn't go through the list. Now suppose I look for the list address
    in the To: or Cc: fields ... if someone BCCs the list (for whatever
    reason) that will fail. Additionally, suppose I send a question to
    the list for which I want to see a duplicate in my inbox (so it stands
    out against the rest of the list mail), that won't work. I am
    describing these scenarios not to start an argument, but only to
    stimulate thought and to present things that you (in the general
    sense) may not have thought of yet.

    | > > Please let's not start a flamewar. I won't cc you anymore since you read
    | > > the lists all of the time.
    | >
    | > Better yet, don't CC unless someone has requested that you do through
    | > the accepted methods of using Followup-To...

    Paul's suggestion is a good practice.

    | Just saw this thread. It brings up a point that I've wondered about. To
    | respond to this list I have to hit the Reply-All button. Then I have to
    | clean out other recipients other than the list address. IF I just use the
    | Reply button, the person, not the list, is entered into the To: field. PITA.

    Yeah.

    | I use KMail - is it being lame?

    Yes. Or, possibly, it has a list reply feature that you haven't found
    yet. I can't say for certain because I don't use it.

    | (I've got "learn Mutt" on my todo list - started playing with it
    | tonight.)

    Highly recommended :-). (see my User-Agent: header)
    Do note that for optimal (IMO) use the index_format variable needs to
    be set differently for different folders (the default will look bad
    when viewing your already-sorted list-only folders).

    -D

    --
    He who walks with the wise grows wise,
    but a companion of fools suffers harm.
    Proverbs 13:20

    [url]http://dman13.dyndns.org/~dman/[/url]

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    =CtBK
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    Derrick 'dman' Hudson Guest

  20. #20

    Default Re: OT: why I don't want CCs

    On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:33:03 -0400
    "Derrick 'dman' Hudson" <dmandman13.dyndns.org> wrote:
    > | I use KMail - is it being lame?
    > Yes. Or, possibly, it has a list reply feature that you haven't found
    > yet. I can't say for certain because I don't use it.
    It does. I don't recall what it is but I remember it being there when I
    was using it.

    --
    Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
    PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
    | -- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
    -------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

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    Steve Lamb Guest

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