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what's the deal at Kagi? - Mac Applications & Software

In article <net>, Bev A. Kupf <net> wrote:   You are just grasping at straws. As far as any issues with the code or whatever, how could you or I ever determine that? The only way would be if Northwestern claimed it was tainted, and proved it was tainted. -- Charles...

  1. #41

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    In article <net>, Bev A. Kupf
    <net> wrote:
     

    You are just grasping at straws. As far as any issues with the code or
    whatever, how could you or I ever determine that? The only way would be
    if Northwestern claimed it was tainted, and proved it was tainted.

    --
    Charles
    Charles Guest

  2. #42

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 19:40:43 -0400,
    Charles (com.remove.invalid) wrote: 
    >
    > You are just grasping at straws. As far as any issues with the code or
    > whatever, how could you or I ever determine that? The only way would be
    > if Northwestern claimed it was tainted, and proved it was tainted.[/ref]

    Which they could, if he made the code available. Something he doesn't do.
    And, if you don't know what clean-room engineering practices are, you should
    learn what they are before dismissing my point as "grasping at straws".

    Take care,
    Bev
    --
    Bev A. Kupf
    "The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer
    Sus - Division One Champions 2003!
    Bev Guest

  3. #43

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    In article <net>, Bev A. Kupf
    <net> wrote:
     

    I know about clean-room engineering. You are grasping at straws because
    since you can't prove your assertions about Brians code in Thoth, you
    are creating another theory to attack him. Using your logic no
    programmer could ever program.

    --
    Charles
    Charles Guest

  4. #44

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 21:02:09 -0400,
    Charles (com.remove.invalid) wrote: 

    Bull. That's how open source programming works. And I'm not the
    first to have raised doubts about the origins of Thoth. There is plenty
    of speculation that Thoth's NNTP module is directly derived from YA-NW,
    and therefore from NW.

    Read this post and its derivatives for details:

    <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=
    180220020627222144%25link%2Bnews%40pobox.com&rnum= 1&prev=/groups%3Fq%
    3DJLN%2Band%2BThoth%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26selm
    %3D180220020627222144%2525link%252Bnews%2540pobox. com%26rnum%3D1>

    As for JLN, he has no interests in NW any more -- having assigned the
    copyright to NU. From what I am reliably informed, NU believes there
    are bigger fish to fry than Thoth.

    Beverly
    --
    Bev A. Kupf
    "The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer
    Sus - Division One Champions 2003!
    Bev Guest

  5. #45

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    In article <net>, Bev A. Kupf
    <net> wrote:
     

    You have no facts, only speculation, but you raise doubts, and have
    decided to participate in a petty vendetta about paying $25 for the
    work Brian Clark has put into Thoth.
     

    You are reliably informed!!! LOL. You are just rehashing gossip.

    --
    Charles
    Charles Guest

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  7. #47

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:01:36 -0400,
    Charles (com.remove.invalid) wrote: 

    Believe what you will. JLN is a personal friend.

    Beverly
    --
    Bev A. Kupf
    "The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer
    Sus - Division One Champions 2003!
    Bev Guest

  8. #48

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    In article <021020031940431992%com.remove.invalid>,
    Charles <com.remove.invalid> wrote:
     

    Or if Brian admitted that it was based on YA-NW code, which was based on
    the orginal code -- which did do at one point, in comp.sys.mac.comm I
    think it was.
    Steven Guest

  9. #49

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    In article <021020031940431992%com.remove.invalid>,
    Charles <com.remove.invalid> wrote:
     
    >
    > You are just grasping at straws. As far as any issues with the code or
    > whatever, how could you or I ever determine that?[/ref]

    Hey, Bev the Bolshevik is the absolute authority on all things! She
    knows all and sets all the rulez!

    --
    Enough <com>
    Enough Guest

  10. #50

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:58:46 GMT,
    Bev A. Kupf (net) wrote: 
    >
    > Believe what you will. JLN is a personal friend.[/ref]

    This response on my part is not complete. So -- here's a better response.
    Brian Clark has said that coding Thoth involved _rearranging_ the YA-NW code
    and changes to the YA-NW code (i.e. NW code), as opposed to writing Thoth
    entirely from scratch.
    His words are here:

    <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=thoth+YA-NW+author:clark&hl=en&lr
    =&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=baclark-250919981333044518%40hamul-1.d.enteract.com
    &rnum=5>

    I quote again from the NewsWatcher read me:
    "Please note that both the NewsWatcher program and NewsWatcher's source
    code are copyright by Northwestern University. You may not use either of
    them for profit."

    Take care,
    Beverly
    --
    Bev A. Kupf
    "The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer
    Sus - Division One Champions 2003!
    Bev Guest

  11. #51

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 12:14:04 GMT,
    Enough (com) wrote: 

    At the very least exposes you to be the lying sack of that you are.
    You never answered me -- what's it like to be a golden knight?

    Beverly
    --
    Bev A. Kupf
    "The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer
    Sus - Division One Champions 2003!
    Bev Guest

  12. #52

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    Enough <com> wrote:
     

    Oh, so you think she's doing what you perceive to be _your_ job, eh? No
    wonder she gets under your skin!

    --
    Mike Rosenberg

    <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida
    <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart
    Mike Guest

  13. #53

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    In article <1g28w79.1jy13vudhzxbN%invalid>,
    invalid (Mike Rosenberg) wrote:
     
    >
    > Oh, so you think she's doing what you perceive to be _your_ job, eh? No
    > wonder she gets under your skin![/ref]

    Nope, my job is to identify and 'out' the moronic and brain dead!

    BTW, no one gets under my skin but some, Bev the Bolshevik is a prime
    example, do endanger my 'equipment' when I project coffee from my nose
    onto my keyboard when reading her logical and incisive posts!

    --
    Enough <com>
    Enough Guest

  14. #54

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    In article <net>,
    "Bev A. Kupf" <net> wrote:
     

    And you never answer me. Where can I get one of those 1 MHZ 17" iBook
    that your SO, Major Mike has? I stand in AWE of his equipment!

    --
    Enough <com>
    Enough Guest

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  17. #57

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 18:24:34 GMT,
    Enough (com) wrote: 

    Why don't you tell me, when you're done playing with yourself.

    Beverly
    --
    Bev A. Kupf
    "The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer
    Sus - Division One Champions 2003!
    Bev Guest

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  19. #59

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    In article <021020032102095211%com.remove.invalid>,
    Charles <com.remove.invalid> wrote:
     
    >
    > I know about clean-room engineering. You are grasping at straws because
    > since you can't prove your assertions about Brians code in Thoth, you
    > are creating another theory to attack him. Using your logic no
    > programmer could ever program.[/ref]

    Err - no. By her logic, no programmer could ever program a for-pay
    program when they had programmed a 'must be free' program.

    This is why the GPL is viral, but does not address the contained IP -
    just the actual code. You cannot include GPL code, but you can include
    algorithms lifted from it, IIRC.

    Brian put himself in a difficult position a few years back when he tried
    to charge for something that was based on NW. His current program does
    bear some resemblance in look to NW. We do not have the code, so we
    have no way of knowing, and thus must make the best call we can as
    users. For some, that is a problem, and there will always be doubt.

    For me, since Brian did go through the VA, YA, and NW saga, I suspect he
    has been most careful about avoiding any NW or NW-derived code in Thoth,
    so I would have no trouble paying for it. Just like one company I
    worked with was very careful about software licenses after an accusation
    of piracy, even though the accusation was false. The issue had become
    important to them, and they were careful.

    Scott
    scott at alodar.com
    scott_ellsworth at alumni.hmc.edu
    Custom Java, JDBC, WebObjects, and Cocoa consulting - inquire within
    Scott Guest

  20. #60

    Default Re: what's the deal at Kagi?

    In article <net>,
    "Bev A. Kupf" <net> wrote:
     

    I read it, but I did not see any statement that he rearranged the YA-NW
    code to create Thoth. He referred to "some more code rearrangement",
    but that doesn't necessarily mean he *used* any of the old code. He
    might have been referring only to the overall organization of the
    program -- like saying that when you replaced all your old furniture
    with new, you also rearranged it.

    Furthermore, re-using YA-NW code isn't the same as using NW code. In
    another message Brian Clark said that "YA-NW 2.4.0 consisted of about
    55% new code and 40% heavily modified code derived from the John Norstad
    NewsWatcher." In other words, more than half of YA-NW is his alone, not
    enbered by Northwestern University's copyright.

    Brian Clark also pointed out in one message that NewsWatcher was itself
    derived from an even earlier newsreader written by Steve Falkenberg at
    Apple. John Norstad took that program and made many changes and
    additions. Eventually, Northwestern University decided that it had
    changed so much as to be a new program, and copyrighted it as their own.
    If NU had a legal right to do that, why not Brian Clark? It depends not
    only on *whether* Thoth contains any of Norstad's NW code, but also *how
    much*.

    I'm not saying Brian Clark is innocent, I'm just saying that I haven't
    seen any convincing evidence or admissions of guilt. The fact that he
    produced both YA-NW and Thoth isn't evidence.
    Wayne Guest

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