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Why do we need AppleTalk? - Mac Networking

I have a couple of 7600 running OS 9.2.2. While other OSX machines were on 10.0 -> 10.2.8 we could fileshare happily via the Network Browser on the 7600, with AppleTalk turned off over the whole network. Now with some machines on 10.3 they become invisible to the 9.2 clients unless we turn on AppleTalk at both ends. For all of Apple's headlong rush into the future abandoning dead technologies, this looks like a great leap backwards.......

  1. #1

    Default Why do we need AppleTalk?

    I have a couple of 7600 running OS 9.2.2. While other OSX machines were
    on 10.0 -> 10.2.8 we could fileshare happily via the Network Browser on
    the 7600, with AppleTalk turned off over the whole network.

    Now with some machines on 10.3 they become invisible to the 9.2 clients
    unless we turn on AppleTalk at both ends. For all of Apple's headlong
    rush into the future abandoning dead technologies, this looks like a
    great leap backwards....
    J.Random Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Why do we need AppleTalk?

    On Tue, 04 May 2004 09:08:05 +1200,
    J.Random Luser (domain) wrote: 

    This is pretty simple. Network Browser under 9.2.2 support SLP and
    AppleTalk for browsing. My recollection is that with 10.0 -> 10.2.8,
    services were advertised using SLP.

    With 10.3 Apple switched to using multicast DNS (Rendezvous). This
    isn't supported by Network Browser on the 9.2 clients. So the solution
    is to turn on AppleTalk to advertise the service.

    The file-sharing connection is still made using TCP/IP.
     

    To repeat myself, AppleTalk is used just for browsing in your example.
    If you examine the network traffic, you will discover that the filesharing
    connections between the 9.2.2 machines and the 10.3 machines are TCP/IP.

    For a small non-routed LAN, this is as efficient as using SLP or multicast
    DNS to advertise services. So there is no "great leap backwards".

    But if you are really twigged out about it, just advertise services on the
    10.3 box using SLP.

    Beverly
    --
    Bev A. Kupf
    "The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer
    Bev Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: Why do we need AppleTalk?

    "Bev A. Kupf" <net> wrote:> 

    I'll buy that for a small non-routed LAN, ie. most soho nets,
    but on campus we're (for better or worse, ask our net gurus why)
    on a VLAN with over 1500 hosts of all types.

    After years of being brow-beaten by sysadmins about chatty Appletalk,
    the problems of routing Appletalk, etc, and now seeing all the netbios
    chatter from the other crowd, plus their requirement for WINS and DNS,
    I thought I was being smart by being able to finally turn Appletalk off.
    I haven't used it since 9.1, even removed the Chooser.
     

    A couple of the "invisible" 10.3.3 machines here Directory access reports
    SLP is on, and portscan, netstat report :427 open & listening

    The 9.2 Network Browser has in its bag of daft error messages

    File sharing is not possible because Appletalk is turned off...
    J.Random Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Why do we need AppleTalk?

    On Wed, 05 May 2004 17:43:09 +1200,
    J.Random Luser (domain) wrote: 

    I suggest your network administrators read this post by Julian Koh
    <http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~consult/deptcomp/2000/msg01407.html>,
    in which he provides statistics about the purported "chattiness"
    of AppleTalk. Here is the bottom-line:

    JK> Based on what I've been seeing on my graphs since I've started collecting,
    JK> AppleTalk accounts for a baseline output on each 10Mbps Ethernet interface
    JK> of ~225 bytes/second. What's that mean? Well, a 10Mbps Ethernet interface
    JK> has 10,000,000 bits * 1 byte/8 bits = 1250000 bytes/second of bandwidth.
    JK> That means that this extra traffic introduced by turning on AppleTalk
    JK> accounts for .018% of the available bandwidth on that segment!! I'm not
    JK> kidding; I will show the graphs to whoever wants to see them.

    My comments - note that Julian's post is from 5 years ago, and the
    additional traffic on a 10Mbps network is 0.018% of the bandwidth
    available. You do the math for a 100Mbps network, or a gigabit
    network.
     

    Make sure it is responding to SLP requests ....
     

    Turn AppleTalk on. Again, your file sharing will not be through
    AppleTalk (DDP). It will be through TCP/IP. Only your browsing
    will be through AppleTalk.

    Beverly
    --
    Bev A. Kupf
    "The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer
    JWolf - more flavours than Baskin Robbins - http://macconsult.com/diaperboy/
    Bev Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: Why do we need AppleTalk?

    "Bev A. Kupf" <net>:
     

    Thanks, I browsed most of that thread.
    Interesting that at around the same time our network gurus were doing
    the same things, except ours were a little less forthcoming about what,
    when or why.

    Anyhow 2 years ago now I switched off our last OS7.1 and 8.1 machines,
    and abandoned AppleTalk. It just wasn't needed anymore.

    So I'll continue to believe it's a backward step to need it for
    discovery of 10.3 Macs. Unless I don't find a way to get SLP running
    properly again...
    J.Random Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Why do we need AppleTalk?

    On Thu, 06 May 2004 13:39:34 +1200,
    J.Random Luser (domain) wrote:
     

    Or learn to use the proxying capabilities of multicast DNS under
    10.3, which would work very well to let your newer OS X Macs find
    older 7.x, 8.x Macs.

    --
    Bev A. Kupf
    "The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer
    JWolf - more flavours than Baskin Robbins - http://macconsult.com/diaperboy/
    Bev Guest

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