Why MS Doesn't Listen To Themselves?

Go download the Windows User Experience Guidelines at
[url]www.microsoft.com/downloads[/url] and have a read.

I am quite amazed at how much babbling is going on at MS like:

"You must replace all Win 9x and Win 3.1 style graphics. Windows
XP-style graphics can be used in Windows Vista, but are also recommended
to be updated to the new style and quality."

"When a page has a small set of fixed options, use command links instead
of a combination of radio buttons and a commit button. This allows users
to select a response with a single click."

"Use Segoe UI, the new Windows Vista system font."

uhh! Like as if MS does anyway... it's like telling off your students
not to do this and that and at the you end up doing it yourself...

MS needs to show the software community *leadership* and not
"bossiness".

Oh you want some backup evidence? Sure!

"You must replace all Win 9x and Win 3.1 style graphics..."

You got it MS! Your Fax program in Vista is still living in the Win 9x
ages!

""When a page has a small set of fixed options, use command links
instead..."

The Sync Conflict screen is NOT using command links but using radio
buttons.

"Use Segoe UI, the new Windows Vista system font."

Calculator is obviously using Arial, a font that dates back to Windows
95, maybe earlier...

P.S. The Segoe ClearType font is excellent, on a positive note...

--
Nicholas...

"Overclock Your Life, Then The World"

Go download the Windows User Experience Guidelines at
[url]www.microsoft.com/downloads[/url] and have a read.

I am quite amazed at how much babbling is going on at MS like:

"You must replace all Win 9x and Win 3.1 style graphics. Windows
XP-style graphics can be used in Windows Vista, but are also recommended
to be updated to the new style and quality."

"When a page has a small set of fixed options, use command links instead
of a combination of radio buttons and a commit button. This allows users
to select a response with a single click."

"Use Segoe UI, the new Windows Vista system font."

uhh! Like as if MS does anyway... it's like telling off your students
not to do this and that and at the you end up doing it yourself...

MS needs to show the software community *leadership* and not
"bossiness".

Oh you want some backup evidence? Sure!

"You must replace all Win 9x and Win 3.1 style graphics..."

You got it MS! Your Fax program in Vista is still living in the Win 9x
ages!

""When a page has a small set of fixed options, use command links
instead..."

The Sync Conflict screen is NOT using command links but using radio
buttons.

"Use Segoe UI, the new Windows Vista system font."

Calculator is obviously using Arial, a font that dates back to Windows
95, maybe earlier...

P.S. The Segoe ClearType font is excellent, on a positive note...

--
Nicholas...

"Overclock Your Life, Then The World"

[Zack Whittaker \(R2 Mentor\)]

"Use Segoe UI, the new Windows Vista system font."

It is the new Windows Vista system font - in that quote before it says only
it about being a new system font - doesn't say anything about 100%
consistancy, but they are trying. You *must* remember it's in Beta, and most
of Vista is written in code form and Visual Studio... obviously a bit more
complex than we'd ever see, but mind you, they get the code and the
functionality there, so what about a bit of mismatched text, pppfff.

Just go easy on it - nobody's forcing you to test it or run it.

--
Zack Whittaker
Microsoft Beta (Windows Server R2 Beta Mentor)
» ZackNET Enterprises: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk[/url]
» MSBlog on ResDev: [url]http://msblog.resdev.net[/url]
» ZackNET Forum: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk/forum[/url]
» VistaBase: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk/vistabase[/url]
» This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no
rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and not
of my employer, best friend, mother or cat. Let's be clear on that one!


--- Original message follows ---
<Nicholas> wrote in message news:eTqjA5oQGHA.4384@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

> Go download the Windows User Experience Guidelines at
> [url]www.microsoft.com/downloads[/url] and have a read.
>
> I am quite amazed at how much babbling is going on at MS like:
>
> "You must replace all Win 9x and Win 3.1 style graphics. Windows
> XP-style graphics can be used in Windows Vista, but are also recommended
> to be updated to the new style and quality."
>
> "When a page has a small set of fixed options, use command links instead
> of a combination of radio buttons and a commit button. This allows users
> to select a response with a single click."
>
> "Use Segoe UI, the new Windows Vista system font."
>
> uhh! Like as if MS does anyway... it's like telling off your students
> not to do this and that and at the you end up doing it yourself...
>
> MS needs to show the software community *leadership* and not
> "bossiness".
>
> Oh you want some backup evidence? Sure!
>
> "You must replace all Win 9x and Win 3.1 style graphics..."
>
> You got it MS! Your Fax program in Vista is still living in the Win 9x
> ages!
>
> ""When a page has a small set of fixed options, use command links
> instead..."
>
> The Sync Conflict screen is NOT using command links but using radio
> buttons.
>
> "Use Segoe UI, the new Windows Vista system font."
>
> Calculator is obviously using Arial, a font that dates back to Windows
> 95, maybe earlier...
>
> P.S. The Segoe ClearType font is excellent, on a positive note...
>
> --
> Nicholas...
>
> "Overclock Your Life, Then The World"
>
>
>

"It is the new Windows Vista system font - in that quote before it says
only
it about being a new system font - doesn't say anything about 100%
consistancy, but they are trying."

Yeah, but that just means Calculator is obviously hard-coded in Arial.

and without trying to get too blunt on this, asthestics to me and
millions of others means as much as reliability, security, and
performance. That's why we expect the very best polishes from this
5-year overdue OS. In fact, those extra years should've allowed them
enough time to paint and polish off a dozen or so jet fighters, let
along software.

--
Nicholas...

"Overclock Your Life, Then The World"

[Zack Whittaker \(R2 Mentor\)]

It's still in beta for Christ's sake, send in a suggestion about it then...
I've said before, they're not polishing off the UI quite yet, they'll get to
the March CTP before they get onto it.

--
Zack Whittaker
Microsoft Beta (Windows Server R2 Beta Mentor)
» ZackNET Enterprises: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk[/url]
» MSBlog on ResDev: [url]http://msblog.resdev.net[/url]
» ZackNET Forum: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk/forum[/url]
» VistaBase: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk/vistabase[/url]
» This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no
rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and not
of my employer, best friend, mother or cat. Let's be clear on that one!


--- Original message follows ---
<Nicholas> wrote in message news:esQ0DEqQGHA.2704@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

> "It is the new Windows Vista system font - in that quote before it says
> only
> it about being a new system font - doesn't say anything about 100%
> consistancy, but they are trying."
>
> Yeah, but that just means Calculator is obviously hard-coded in Arial.
>
> and without trying to get too blunt on this, asthestics to me and millions
> of others means as much as reliability, security, and performance. That's
> why we expect the very best polishes from this 5-year overdue OS. In fact,
> those extra years should've allowed them enough time to paint and polish
> off a dozen or so jet fighters, let along software.
>
> --
> Nicholas...
>
> "Overclock Your Life, Then The World"
>

[Adahn]

Hear you Nick.

Beware the dreaded "Feature Complete" and "Narrow Deadlines" responses
though.

I must've started off as the most excited-about-Vista person on the planet,
but with each progressive build it becomes apparent they started with, Hey,
Let's rip off the latest Mac OS! after which everything was a byproduct of
that; Aero, the new accessory apps, and...well, that's about it. All the
under-the-hood changes do nothing that, at the end of the day, can not be
achieved with XP. or do they?

This is THE chance for Microsoft to get rid of bad habits once and for all -
the minor nuisances that've been embedded deep into the Windows paradigm
since forever - without needing to be constantly reminded by the few people
(heaven knows who) they actually listen to.

A delay of few more months into 2007 would be worth it and welcome if they
can finally get this right.

Here's betting on the chances of at least a 100 glaring inconsistencies
remaining in the RTM..

"Zack Whittaker (R2 Mentor)" <admin@zacknet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eAeJTHrQGHA.2628@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

> It's still in beta for Christ's sake, send in a suggestion about it
> then... I've said before, they're not polishing off the UI quite yet,
> they'll get to the March CTP before they get onto it.
>
> --
> Zack Whittaker
> Microsoft Beta (Windows Server R2 Beta Mentor)
> » ZackNET Enterprises: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk[/url]
> » MSBlog on ResDev: [url]http://msblog.resdev.net[/url]
> » ZackNET Forum: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk/forum[/url]
> » VistaBase: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk/vistabase[/url]
> » This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and
> not
> of my employer, best friend, mother or cat. Let's be clear on that one!
>
>
> --- Original message follows ---
> <Nicholas> wrote in message news:esQ0DEqQGHA.2704@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

>> "It is the new Windows Vista system font - in that quote before it says
>> only
>> it about being a new system font - doesn't say anything about 100%
>> consistancy, but they are trying."
>>
>> Yeah, but that just means Calculator is obviously hard-coded in Arial.
>>
>> and without trying to get too blunt on this, asthestics to me and
>> millions of others means as much as reliability, security, and
>> performance. That's why we expect the very best polishes from this 5-year
>> overdue OS. In fact, those extra years should've allowed them enough time
>> to paint and polish off a dozen or so jet fighters, let along software.
>>
>> --
>> Nicholas...
>>
>> "Overclock Your Life, Then The World"
>>

>
>

[Adahn]

on a related note, one of the very first things I did on a Windows
installation was setting the MS Shell Dlg font in
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows
NT\CurrentVersion\FontSubstitutes to Verdana :)

now it's Segoe of course (though Verdana remains much more cleaner and
UI-suitable)

[Zack Whittaker \(R2 Mentor\)]

Verdana is too "chunky" for dialog boxes. They wanted something similar to
MS Sans Serif that they used and also was ClearType compatible. They
obviously went for Segoe UI.

--
Zack Whittaker
Microsoft Beta (Windows Server R2 Beta Mentor)
» ZackNET Enterprises: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk[/url]
» MSBlog on ResDev: [url]http://msblog.resdev.net[/url]
» ZackNET Forum: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk/forum[/url]
» VistaBase: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk/vistabase[/url]
» This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no
rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and not
of my employer, best friend, mother or cat. Let's be clear on that one!


--- Original message follows ---
"Adahn" <administrator@localhost> wrote in message
news:O5DrzQsQGHA.516@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

> on a related note, one of the very first things I did on a Windows
> installation was setting the MS Shell Dlg font in
> HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows
> NT\CurrentVersion\FontSubstitutes to Verdana :)
>
> now it's Segoe of course (though Verdana remains much more cleaner and
> UI-suitable)

[Adahn]

It was certainly better than MS Sans Serif and the spindly Tahoma :) until
Segoe UI came of course

Nothing beats Chicago though ;p

"Zack Whittaker (R2 Mentor)" <admin@zacknet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:%23g7mztsQGHA.3896@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

> Verdana is too "chunky" for dialog boxes. They wanted something similar to
> MS Sans Serif that they used and also was ClearType compatible. They
> obviously went for Segoe UI.

[Eric]

errrr..... MS ALWAYS like to call themselves BETA and ignore customer
suggestions...

And when it's RC, they say IT'S TOO LATE!

How on earth are we suppose to contribute? Beg in front of MS Headquaters?

"Zack Whittaker (R2 Mentor)" wrote:

> It's still in beta for Christ's sake, send in a suggestion about it then...
> I've said before, they're not polishing off the UI quite yet, they'll get to
> the March CTP before they get onto it.
>
> --
> Zack Whittaker
> Microsoft Beta (Windows Server R2 Beta Mentor)
> » ZackNET Enterprises: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk[/url]
> » MSBlog on ResDev: [url]http://msblog.resdev.net[/url]
> » ZackNET Forum: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk/forum[/url]
> » VistaBase: [url]www.zacknet.co.uk/vistabase[/url]
> » This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and not
> of my employer, best friend, mother or cat. Let's be clear on that one!
>
>
> --- Original message follows ---
> <Nicholas> wrote in message news:esQ0DEqQGHA.2704@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

> > "It is the new Windows Vista system font - in that quote before it says
> > only
> > it about being a new system font - doesn't say anything about 100%
> > consistancy, but they are trying."
> >
> > Yeah, but that just means Calculator is obviously hard-coded in Arial.
> >
> > and without trying to get too blunt on this, asthestics to me and millions
> > of others means as much as reliability, security, and performance. That's
> > why we expect the very best polishes from this 5-year overdue OS. In fact,
> > those extra years should've allowed them enough time to paint and polish
> > off a dozen or so jet fighters, let along software.
> >
> > --
> > Nicholas...
> >
> > "Overclock Your Life, Then The World"
> >

>
>
>

[flatulence]

Adahn wrote:

> Hear you Nick.
>
> Beware the dreaded "Feature Complete" and "Narrow Deadlines" responses
> though.
>
> I must've started off as the most excited-about-Vista person on the
> planet, but with each progressive build it becomes apparent they started
> with, Hey, Let's rip off the latest Mac OS! after which everything was a
> byproduct of that; Aero, the new accessory apps, and...well, that's
> about it. All the under-the-hood changes do nothing that, at the end of
> the day, can not be achieved with XP. or do they?
>
> This is THE chance for Microsoft to get rid of bad habits once and for
> all - the minor nuisances that've been embedded deep into the Windows
> paradigm since forever - without needing to be constantly reminded by
> the few people (heaven knows who) they actually listen to.
>
> A delay of few more months into 2007 would be worth it and welcome if
> they can finally get this right.
>
> Here's betting on the chances of at least a 100 glaring inconsistencies
> remaining in the RTM..
>

<snip>

>>
>> --- Original message follows ---
>> <Nicholas> wrote in message news:esQ0DEqQGHA.2704@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

>>> "It is the new Windows Vista system font - in that quote before it
>>> says only
>>> it about being a new system font - doesn't say anything about 100%
>>> consistancy, but they are trying."
>>>
>>> Yeah, but that just means Calculator is obviously hard-coded in Arial.
>>>
>>> and without trying to get too blunt on this, asthestics to me and
>>> millions of others means as much as reliability, security, and
>>> performance. That's why we expect the very best polishes from this
>>> 5-year overdue OS. In fact, those extra years should've allowed them
>>> enough time to paint and polish off a dozen or so jet fighters, let
>>> along software.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nicholas...
>>>
>>> "Overclock Your Life, Then The World"
>>>

>>
>>

>

Fianlly, some *OBJECTIVE* feedback on Vista! :)

[Adahn]

> errrr..... MS ALWAYS like to call themselves BETA and ignore customer

> suggestions...
>
> And when it's RC, they say IT'S TOO LATE!
>
> How on earth are we supposed to contribute? Beg in front of MS
> Headquaters?

heh right on the spot. Just look at the incredibly NARROW time frame between
announcing the "Vista" name and the almost instant declaration of being
"Feature Complete" after we had just begun to see the shape it was to take.

and what have they got to show for it? Take away the extraneous Mac OSX
emulation, a free copy of WindowBlinds/WindowFX, the numerous restrictions
in the name of security that border on the behavior of a game console, not
to mention all the scraped plans...



maybe it's time for the consumer class to add another suit to Microsoft's
deck of litigations -_-

[Mike Williams]

Eric wrote:

> errrr..... MS ALWAYS like to call themselves BETA and ignore customer
> suggestions...

Actually that's GOOGLE you're thinking of. A good many of its products
are still *officially* in beta.

> And when it's RC, they say IT'S TOO LATE!

You can't hold up shipping forever. Someone will always have a contrary
opinion.

> How on earth are we suppose to contribute? Beg in front of MS Headquaters?

There will be a public beta, but believe me, the private beta is getting
*plenty* of feedback: probably more than any company can properly
assess and react to.

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

Beta testers are actively contributing.
If you are not a Beta tester, your immediate contributions are greatly
reduced:
[url]http://support.microsoft.com/contactus/?WS=Wish[/url]
But suggestions made in the public Vista newsgroups may be carried to the
private Vista Beta newsgroups and on from there.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
[url]http://www3.telus.net/dandemar[/url]
[url]http://www.dts-l.org[/url]


"Eric" <Eric@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:78FA320E-F283-4F0A-AEBA-1702062004A4@microsoft.com...

> errrr..... MS ALWAYS like to call themselves BETA and ignore customer
> suggestions...
>
> And when it's RC, they say IT'S TOO LATE!
>
> How on earth are we suppose to contribute? Beg in front of MS Headquaters?

[Eric]

That proves how much customer service they're willing to put in... Beta
testers ONLY? what about CUSTOMERS?

One word... DISCRIMINATING!

"Mike Williams" wrote:

> Eric wrote:

> > errrr..... MS ALWAYS like to call themselves BETA and ignore customer
> > suggestions...

>
> Actually that's GOOGLE you're thinking of. A good many of its products
> are still *officially* in beta.
>

> > And when it's RC, they say IT'S TOO LATE!

>
> You can't hold up shipping forever. Someone will always have a contrary
> opinion.
>

> > How on earth are we suppose to contribute? Beg in front of MS Headquaters?

>
> There will be a public beta, but believe me, the private beta is getting
> *plenty* of feedback: probably more than any company can properly
> assess and react to.
>

[Mike Williams]

Eric wrote:

> That proves how much customer service they're willing to put in... Beta
> testers ONLY? what about CUSTOMERS?
>
> One word... DISCRIMINATING!

You should look up the meaning of "discriminating" in a dictionary. It
actually has a positive connotation. You might be thinking of
"discriminatory"....?

I actually think your complaint is that you either want 100% of
customers to beta test or that you want special attention for YOU.

What makes you think that any of the current beta testers might NOT be
customers?

Do you think your illogical thinking makes you a good beta tester?

[Eric]

i never said I was a "good beta tester", mind you...

BUT, bias towards Beta testers and giving little attention to PUBLIC
customers is unfair don't you agree?

Look... public customers currently have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Windows Vista
except BitComet or whatever BitTorrent variants. And what about their
feedback mechanisms? [email]mswish@microsoft.com[/email]?

and now, how are PUBLIC customers supposed to eail anything relevant to
Vista whe, by the time Vista is publicly BETA released to the public, it's
ALREADY DEEMED FEATURE COMPLETE?

So there you go... asking PUBLIC customers to give suggestions during
FEATURE COMPLETE is like suggesting for Windows Vienna... another 5 years....
and do you honestly expect any feedback during feature complete will make any
*material* change in Vista... I seriously doubt....


"Mike Williams" wrote:

> Eric wrote:

> > That proves how much customer service they're willing to put in... Beta
> > testers ONLY? what about CUSTOMERS?
> >
> > One word... DISCRIMINATING!

>
> You should look up the meaning of "discriminating" in a dictionary. It
> actually has a positive connotation. You might be thinking of
> "discriminatory"....?
>
> I actually think your complaint is that you either want 100% of
> customers to beta test or that you want special attention for YOU.
>
> What makes you think that any of the current beta testers might NOT be
> customers?
>
> Do you think your illogical thinking makes you a good beta tester?
>

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

Eric;
Beta testers for the most part are "PUBLIC customers"
Everyone has the same access as always, the mswish address you gave is one.
That can be used anytime, not just before the release of a new product.
If you have an idea for an operating system or anything else for that
matter, send it in.
There is no reason for you to wait for the Beta since we all know
development is continuing on the next OS.

The changes in Windows over the years have not only come from Beta testers,
but also people like you that have used appropriate methods such as MS Wish
to contact Microsoft about suggestions.

If everyone had the same access, the Vista Product Group would be
overwhelmed to the point very little could be accomplished.

Rumour has it this Beta started with 10,000 worldwide with almost as wide a
variety of interests and computers.
That number has significantly ramped up and may continue to do so.
I think I later heard the number was at 100,000, but I am not at all sure.
Most if not all Beta testers have access to Microsoft through the private
Microsoft newsgroups.
Others also have access through their corporate representatives.
Others may have direct access to the Product Group.
The groups of testers gets smaller the farther you go.
The better the access, the smaller the group..
To which group above should everyone get access.
Do you want everyone to have direct access to the Vista team? The sheer
numbers would drown the Vista team.
Or do you draw the line somewhere else?
Microsoft owns Vista and thus draws the line where they see fit.

As for fair, life is not fair and any attempt to make everything fair WILL
fail.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
[url]http://www3.telus.net/dandemar[/url]
[url]http://www.dts-l.org[/url]


"Eric" <Eric@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:F9B1B884-BDAF-40C4-ACB2-B58D67D9CC85@microsoft.com...

>i never said I was a "good beta tester", mind you...
>
> BUT, bias towards Beta testers and giving little attention to PUBLIC
> customers is unfair don't you agree?
>
> Look... public customers currently have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Windows Vista
> except BitComet or whatever BitTorrent variants. And what about their
> feedback mechanisms? [email]mswish@microsoft.com[/email]?
>
> and now, how are PUBLIC customers supposed to eail anything relevant to
> Vista whe, by the time Vista is publicly BETA released to the public, it's
> ALREADY DEEMED FEATURE COMPLETE?
>
> So there you go... asking PUBLIC customers to give suggestions during
> FEATURE COMPLETE is like suggesting for Windows Vienna... another 5
> years....
> and do you honestly expect any feedback during feature complete will make
> any
> *material* change in Vista... I seriously doubt.

[Eric]

OK I see your point...

But legal access before material suggestions still apply...

As for fairness, I guess that explains why there aren't a lot of loyal
Microsoft customers.

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote:

> Eric;
> Beta testers for the most part are "PUBLIC customers"
> Everyone has the same access as always, the mswish address you gave is one.
> That can be used anytime, not just before the release of a new product.
> If you have an idea for an operating system or anything else for that
> matter, send it in.
> There is no reason for you to wait for the Beta since we all know
> development is continuing on the next OS.
>
> The changes in Windows over the years have not only come from Beta testers,
> but also people like you that have used appropriate methods such as MS Wish
> to contact Microsoft about suggestions.
>
> If everyone had the same access, the Vista Product Group would be
> overwhelmed to the point very little could be accomplished.
>
> Rumour has it this Beta started with 10,000 worldwide with almost as wide a
> variety of interests and computers.
> That number has significantly ramped up and may continue to do so.
> I think I later heard the number was at 100,000, but I am not at all sure.
> Most if not all Beta testers have access to Microsoft through the private
> Microsoft newsgroups.
> Others also have access through their corporate representatives.
> Others may have direct access to the Product Group.
> The groups of testers gets smaller the farther you go.
> The better the access, the smaller the group..
> To which group above should everyone get access.
> Do you want everyone to have direct access to the Vista team? The sheer
> numbers would drown the Vista team.
> Or do you draw the line somewhere else?
> Microsoft owns Vista and thus draws the line where they see fit.
>
> As for fair, life is not fair and any attempt to make everything fair WILL
> fail.
>
> --
> Jupiter Jones [MVP]
> [url]http://www3.telus.net/dandemar[/url]
> [url]http://www.dts-l.org[/url]
>
>
> "Eric" <Eric@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:F9B1B884-BDAF-40C4-ACB2-B58D67D9CC85@microsoft.com...

> >i never said I was a "good beta tester", mind you...
> >
> > BUT, bias towards Beta testers and giving little attention to PUBLIC
> > customers is unfair don't you agree?
> >
> > Look... public customers currently have NO LEGAL ACCESS to Windows Vista
> > except BitComet or whatever BitTorrent variants. And what about their
> > feedback mechanisms? [email]mswish@microsoft.com[/email]?
> >
> > and now, how are PUBLIC customers supposed to eail anything relevant to
> > Vista whe, by the time Vista is publicly BETA released to the public, it's
> > ALREADY DEEMED FEATURE COMPLETE?
> >
> > So there you go... asking PUBLIC customers to give suggestions during
> > FEATURE COMPLETE is like suggesting for Windows Vienna... another 5
> > years....
> > and do you honestly expect any feedback during feature complete will make
> > any
> > *material* change in Vista... I seriously doubt.

>
>
>

[nubian]

Eric wrote:

> OK I see your point...
>
> But legal access before material suggestions still apply...
>
> As for fairness, I guess that explains why there aren't a lot of loyal
> Microsoft customers.
>
> "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote:
>

>> Eric;
>> Beta testers for the most part are "PUBLIC customers"
>> Everyone has the same access as always, the mswish address you gave is one.
>> That can be used anytime, not just before the release of a new product.
>> If you have an idea for an operating system or anything else for that
>> matter, send it in.
>> There is no reason for you to wait for the Beta since we all know
>> development is continuing on the next OS.
>>
>> The changes in Windows over the years have not only come from Beta testers,
>> but also people like you that have used appropriate methods such as MS Wish
>> to contact Microsoft about suggestions.
>>
>> If everyone had the same access, the Vista Product Group would be
>> overwhelmed to the point very little could be accomplished.
>>
>> Rumour has it this Beta started with 10,000 worldwide with almost as wide a
>> variety of interests and computers.
>> That number has significantly ramped up and may continue to do so.
>> I think I later heard the number was at 100,000, but I am not at all sure.
>> Most if not all Beta testers have access to Microsoft through the private
>> Microsoft newsgroups.
>> Others also have access through their corporate representatives.
>> Others may have direct access to the Product Group.
>> The groups of testers gets smaller the farther you go.
>> The better the access, the smaller the group..
>> To which group above should everyone get access.
>> Do you want everyone to have direct access to the Vista team? The sheer
>> numbers would drown the Vista team.
>> Or do you draw the line somewhere else?
>> Microsoft owns Vista and thus draws the line where they see fit.
>>
>> As for fair, life is not fair and any attempt to make everything fair WILL
>> fail.
>>
>> --
>> Jupiter Jones [MVP]
>> [url]http://www3.telus.net/dandemar[/url]
>> [url]http://www.dts-l.org[/url]
>>

<snip>

Microsoft treats their customers like criminals with WPA and WGA. It
will probably get worse with Vista. Sooner or later, people will get
fed up and they will make that clear to MS!