Why would anyone learn asp now rather than asp.net?

[Jeff Clark]

[Atrax]

is that rhetoric, or inviting a response?


because ASP is intrinsically 'easier'? (i.e. no worries with types and
so on)


________________________________________
Atrax. MVP, IIS
[url]http://rtfm.atrax.co.uk/[/url]

newsflash : Atrax.Richedit 1.0 now released.
[url]http://rtfm.atrax.co.uk/infinitemonkeys/components/Atrax.RichEdit/[/url]

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[Bullschmidt]

Well there's that little thing about shelling out $500 or whatever for
Visual Studio. And the learning curve for ASP.NET is steeper because it
is more complex.

Best regards,
J. Paul Schmidt, Freelance ASP Web Developer
[url]http://www.Bullschmidt.com[/url]
ASP Design Tips, ASP Web Database Demo, Free ASP Bar Chart Tool...


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[Michael D. Kersey]

Because ASP.net is a POS? (just guessing: let me know if i win the prize).

But for our other, more knowledgeable readers:
ASP.NET tries to hide the entire Internet (TCP/IP, HTTP, HTML, XML, SSL,
etc.) behind abstractions and layers of abstraction. Now this makes a
VB6 programmer feel more at home, nice and warm and cozy, since he
(apparently) need not concern himself with the intricacies of, say, RFC
2068 (HTTP/1.1) and because he has an IDE that reminds him of VB6. None
of that nasty Internet stuff is present: he can code (apparently) just
as he could before.

But ASP.NET's abstraction layers make certain assumptions: See
"The Eight Fallacies of Distributed Computing" by Peter Deutsch at
[url]http://java.sun.com/people/jag/Fallacies.html[/url]
and "The Law of Leaky Abstractions" by Joel Spolsky at
[url]http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html[/url]
to see what I mean. Using such abstractions sets up a situation that
eventually will cause the ASP.NET developer's world to come tumbling
down domino-like around him when things don't work.

The ASP.NET developer is like a surgeon who has never seen a real human
body, but who has learned all his anatomy and physiology from _Gray's
Anatomy_. When something goes wrong (as it inevitably will) the
underlying guts of the Internet are exposed to the programmer: no nice
colors, no neat red blood vessel here and grey nerve fiber there -
everything is jumbled up and not color-coded. Sadly, the ASP.NET
developer doesn't recognize _a single thing_, since ASP.NET's
abstractions masked the Internet and only taught him Microsoft buzzwords
for every item that now lies before him.

In the ASP.NET newsgroups they don't often ask questions about the
Internet or about Internet standards and they don't talk about the RFC's
that define the Internet or the pieces of the Internet. Instead they
talk about ASP.NET and the pieces of ASP.NET; they are intellectually
consumed by one company's _description_ of the Internet instead of by
the Internet itself. Microsoft wants ASP.NET developers to be dependent
on Microsoft and feeds this dependence.

In contrast ASP hides only a few Internet details (headers,
redirection): for the most part an ASP developer is _on_ the Internet
and close to the wires. The ASP developer is _acutely_ aware of the
Internet (at least the _good_ ASP developers are). The ASP developer
knows the differences between a VB6 client/server app and a web
application: she knows the pros and cons of each. He/she is also aware
of something very useful, that is, how the Internet works (instead of
how ASP.NET works).

In contrast, the ASP.NET developer knows only that he's in a different
IDE ("Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore!").

That's enough for now.
Good Luck,
Michael D. Kersey

[Ken Schaefer]

Michael,

Please don't associate abstraction with an ineveitable lack of knowledge of,
say, HTTP on the part of the developer. That's a huge logical fallacy.

There are some ASP.Net developers who don't understand HTML, HTTP and so
forth. They existed in the ASP world as well.

There are also plenty of ASP.Net developers who *do* understand HTTP,
(X)HTML, CSS and so forth. How do you think big companies are able to move
their sites over to ASP.Net and still have them work in lots of browsers?

I'm sorry that you experience with the ASP.Net newsgroups here has been so
poor. Could I suggest, instead, [url]www.aspAdvice.com[/url], which has lists for
webUIdesign and webClient issues when using ASP.Net

Furthermore, just because a developer may be ignorant of what they're doing
doesn't make ASP.Net a "POS" - that's another logical fallacy.

Cheers
Ken

"Michael D. Kersey" <mdkersey@hal-pc.org> wrote in message
news:%23eptBaIhDHA.1932@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
: Because ASP.net is a POS? (just guessing: let me know if i win the prize).
:
: But for our other, more knowledgeable readers:
: ASP.NET tries to hide the entire Internet (TCP/IP, HTTP, HTML, XML, SSL,
: etc.) behind abstractions and layers of abstraction. Now this makes a
: VB6 programmer feel more at home, nice and warm and cozy, since he
: (apparently) need not concern himself with the intricacies of, say, RFC
: 2068 (HTTP/1.1) and because he has an IDE that reminds him of VB6. None
: of that nasty Internet stuff is present: he can code (apparently) just
: as he could before.
:
: But ASP.NET's abstraction layers make certain assumptions: See
: "The Eight Fallacies of Distributed Computing" by Peter Deutsch at
: [url]http://java.sun.com/people/jag/Fallacies.html[/url]
: and "The Law of Leaky Abstractions" by Joel Spolsky at
: [url]http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html[/url]
: to see what I mean. Using such abstractions sets up a situation that
: eventually will cause the ASP.NET developer's world to come tumbling
: down domino-like around him when things don't work.
:
: The ASP.NET developer is like a surgeon who has never seen a real human
: body, but who has learned all his anatomy and physiology from _Gray's
: Anatomy_. When something goes wrong (as it inevitably will) the
: underlying guts of the Internet are exposed to the programmer: no nice
: colors, no neat red blood vessel here and grey nerve fiber there -
: everything is jumbled up and not color-coded. Sadly, the ASP.NET
: developer doesn't recognize _a single thing_, since ASP.NET's
: abstractions masked the Internet and only taught him Microsoft buzzwords
: for every item that now lies before him.
:
: In the ASP.NET newsgroups they don't often ask questions about the
: Internet or about Internet standards and they don't talk about the RFC's
: that define the Internet or the pieces of the Internet. Instead they
: talk about ASP.NET and the pieces of ASP.NET; they are intellectually
: consumed by one company's _description_ of the Internet instead of by
: the Internet itself. Microsoft wants ASP.NET developers to be dependent
: on Microsoft and feeds this dependence.
:
: In contrast ASP hides only a few Internet details (headers,
: redirection): for the most part an ASP developer is _on_ the Internet
: and close to the wires. The ASP developer is _acutely_ aware of the
: Internet (at least the _good_ ASP developers are). The ASP developer
: knows the differences between a VB6 client/server app and a web
: application: she knows the pros and cons of each. He/she is also aware
: of something very useful, that is, how the Internet works (instead of
: how ASP.NET works).
:
: In contrast, the ASP.NET developer knows only that he's in a different
: IDE ("Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore!").
:
: That's enough for now.
: Good Luck,
: Michael D. Kersey
:

[Michael D. Kersey]

Because ASP.net is a POS? (just guessing: let me know if i win the prize).

But for our other, more knowledgeable readers:
ASP.NET tries to hide the entire Internet (TCP/IP, HTTP, HTML, XML, SSL,
etc.) behind abstractions and layers of abstraction. Now this makes a
VB6 programmer feel more at home, nice and warm and cozy, since he
(apparently) need not concern himself with the intricacies of, say, RFC
2068 (HTTP/1.1) and because he has an IDE that reminds him of VB6. None
of that nasty Internet stuff is present: he can code (apparently) just
as he could before.

But ASP.NET's abstraction layers make certain assumptions: See
"The Eight Fallacies of Distributed Computing" by Peter Deutsch at
[url]http://java.sun.com/people/jag/Fallacies.html[/url]
and "The Law of Leaky Abstractions" by Joel Spolsky at
[url]http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html[/url]
to see what I mean. Using such abstractions sets up a situation that
eventually will cause the ASP.NET developer's world to come tumbling
down domino-like around him when things don't work.

The ASP.NET developer is like a surgeon who has never seen a real human
body, but who has learned all his anatomy and physiology from _Gray's
Anatomy_. When something goes wrong (as it inevitably will) the
underlying guts of the Internet are exposed to the programmer: no nice
colors, no neat red blood vessel here and grey nerve fiber there -
everything is jumbled up and not color-coded. Sadly, the ASP.NET
developer doesn't recognize _a single thing_, since ASP.NET's
abstractions masked the Internet and only taught him Microsoft buzzwords
for every item that now lies before him.

In the ASP.NET newsgroups they don't often ask questions about the
Internet or about Internet standards and they don't talk about the RFC's
that define the Internet or the pieces of the Internet. Instead they
talk about ASP.NET and the pieces of ASP.NET; they are intellectually
consumed by one company's _description_ of the Internet instead of by
the Internet itself. Microsoft wants ASP.NET developers to be dependent
on Microsoft and feeds this dependence.

In contrast ASP hides only a few Internet details (headers,
redirection): for the most part an ASP developer is _on_ the Internet
and close to the wires. The ASP developer is _acutely_ aware of the
Internet (at least the _good_ ASP developers are). The ASP developer
knows the differences between a VB6 client/server app and a web
application: she knows the pros and cons of each. He/she is also aware
of something very useful, that is, how the Internet works (instead of
how ASP.NET works).

In contrast, the ASP.NET developer knows only that he's in a different
IDE ("Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore!").

That's enough for now.
Good Luck,
Michael D. Kersey

[Michael D. Kersey]

Ken Schaefer wrote:
<snipped>

> There are also plenty of ASP.Net developers who *do* understand HTTP,
> (X)HTML, CSS and so forth. How do you think big companies are able to move
> their sites over to ASP.Net and still have them work in lots of browsers?

Yes, but those developers had already learned about the Internet from
ASP/IIS, Perl/Apache, etc. _prior_ to learning ASP.NET. The OP asked why
someone would learn ASP rather than ASP.NET, so such developers as you
describe don't fall into the discussion.

I'll put it another way:
the best Internet developers are those who know the Internet( e.g.,
skilled ASP and Perl developers); the worst are those who don't know the
Internet.

Unfortunately, the latter are precisely the market that Microsoft has
addressed with ASP.NET: the great unwashed millions of VB6 developers
who, up to this point, have not gotten off their duffs and learned
_anything_ about the Internet (and now never will). Of course most of
them wouldn't know a newsgroups from a newspaper, so they won't be
posting their opinions here.

> Furthermore, just because a developer may be ignorant of what they're doing
> doesn't make ASP.Net a "POS" - that's another logical fallacy.

And that's not what I said, another logical fallacy.

You'll never learn about the workings of the Internet by learning ASP.NET.

Good Luck,
Michael D. Kersey

[Ken Schaefer]

"Michael D. Kersey" <mdkersey@hal-pc.org> wrote in message
news:u6FAqsKhDHA.2164@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
: Ken Schaefer wrote:
: <snipped>
: > There are also plenty of ASP.Net developers who *do* understand HTTP,
: > (X)HTML, CSS and so forth. How do you think big companies are able to
move
: > their sites over to ASP.Net and still have them work in lots of
browsers?
:
: Yes, but those developers had already learned about the Internet from
: ASP/IIS, Perl/Apache, etc. _prior_ to learning ASP.NET.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Says who? Good developers will learn what they need - including (X)HTML, and
HTTP, and CSS. Regardless of what they knew prior. Personally, I know plenty
of ASP.Net developers who are cognizant of other standards, and it has
*nothing* to do with whether they learnt ASP, or Perl first.

The *type* of person that the developer is usually dictates *what* they
learn. Additionally, large companies that run websites that need to cater
for a wide variety of customers, need to develop cross-browser solutions.
And their developers need to be aware of these issues.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Unfortunately, the latter are precisely the market that Microsoft has
: addressed with ASP.NET: the great unwashed millions of VB6 developers
: who, up to this point, have not gotten off their duffs and learned
: _anything_ about the Internet
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It seems that you, sadly, have missed a large chunk of what ASP.Net is also
about...

And hey, if you don't like the output that ASP.Net renders, you can always
override a few methods and generate your own output.

The entire ASP.Net design experience is so far superior to ASPs that I,
personally, would never go back. Furthermore, the performance of ASP.Net is
far superior to ASP.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: > Furthermore, just because a developer may be ignorant of what
: > they're doing doesn't make ASP.Net a "POS" - that's another
: > logical fallacy.
: And that's not what I said, another logical fallacy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You said that one should learn ASP because ASP.Net is a "POS". You then went
on to explain that ASP.Net hides things from the developer. By implication,
this "explanation" is the reason why you think ASP.Net is a POS.

Sure, I made an assumption that your subsequent paragraphs where related to
your first statement. However it's an entirely reasonable assumption,
because otherwise you're just making an unsubstatiated claim.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: You'll never learn about the workings of the Internet by learning ASP.NET.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nor will you learn about the workings of the internet if you learn ASP. ASP
doesn't expose anything that ASP.Net doesn't either. You can set HTTP
headers using ASP.Net (for example). Likewise, there are plenty of ASP
developers out there who are still using <font> tags, or wondering why:
<a href=somepage.asp?value=something with a space>click</a>
doesn't work.

Cheers
Ken

[Michael D. Kersey]

Ah, but the real questions is "Why would anyone learn ASP.NET when
instead they could learn to use the incredibly complete, beautiful and
well-documented Perl CPAN libraries at [url]http://search.cpan.org/[/url] and by
studying Perl for only an hour at
[url]http://www.ebb.org/PickingUpPerl/pickingUpPerl.html[/url] or at
http://www.sthomas.net/roberts-perl-tutorial.htm" and when Perl is
freely available at [url]http://www.perl.org/[/url] and the Apache Web server is
freely available at [url]http://http.apache.org/[/url] (click on "httpd server" on
the left).

The answer to this questions is, of course, for any rational person
"They would not."

Or possibly the real question is "Why would an ASP programmer learn
ASP.NET after Microsoft had yanked from the market the development
language that he or she had spent years learning, working with, and
making a living with?" We need not restrict this question to ASP
programmers, but can extend it:
"Why would an ASP, VB6, or C++ programmer learn ASP.NET after Microsoft
had yanked from the market the development tools that he or she had
spent years learning, working in, and making a living with?"

The answer to these questions is, of course, for any rational person
"They would not."

Good Luck,
Michael D. Kersey

[Michael D. Kersey]

Ah, but the real questions is "Why would anyone learn ASP.NET when
instead they could learn to use the incredibly complete, beautiful and
well-documented Perl CPAN libraries at [url]http://search.cpan.org/[/url] and by
studying Perl for only an hour at
[url]http://www.ebb.org/PickingUpPerl/pickingUpPerl.html[/url] or at
http://www.sthomas.net/roberts-perl-tutorial.htm" and when Perl is
freely available at [url]http://www.perl.org/[/url] and the Apache Web server is
freely available at [url]http://www.apache.org/[/url] (click on "httpd server" on
the left).

The answer to this questions is, of course, for any rational person
"They would not."

Or possibly the real question is "Why would an ASP programmer learn
ASP.NET after Microsoft had yanked from the market the development
language that he or she had spent years learning, working with, and
making a living with?" We need not restrict this question to ASP
programmers, but can extend it:
"Why would an ASP, VB6, or C++ programmer learn ASP.NET after Microsoft
had yanked from the market the development tools that he or she had
spent years learning, working in, and making a living with?"

The answer to these questions is, of course, for any rational person
"They would not."

Good Luck,
Michael D. Kersey

[Ken Schaefer]

: Why would an ASP programmer learn
: ASP.NET after Microsoft had yanked from the market the development
: language that he or she had spent years learning, working with, and
: making a living with?"

Because the world has moved on. There are a new set of challenges that
require a new set of tools. Developers have been demanding these. And
Microsoft needs to try and deliver.

The same reason Microsoft developed Windows NT. Or Active Directory. Or the
upcoming Yukon.

Cheers
Ken

"Michael D. Kersey" <mdkersey@hal-pc.org> wrote in message
news:ObLi6kPhDHA.3272@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
: Ah, but the real questions is "Why would anyone learn ASP.NET when
: instead they could learn to use the incredibly complete, beautiful and
: well-documented Perl CPAN libraries at [url]http://search.cpan.org/[/url] and by
: studying Perl for only an hour at
: [url]http://www.ebb.org/PickingUpPerl/pickingUpPerl.html[/url] or at
: http://www.sthomas.net/roberts-perl-tutorial.htm" and when Perl is
: freely available at [url]http://www.perl.org/[/url] and the Apache Web server is
: freely available at [url]http://www.apache.org/[/url] (click on "httpd server" on
: the left).
:
: The answer to this questions is, of course, for any rational person
: "They would not."
:
: Or possibly the real question is "Why would an ASP programmer learn
: ASP.NET after Microsoft had yanked from the market the development
: language that he or she had spent years learning, working with, and
: making a living with?" We need not restrict this question to ASP
: programmers, but can extend it:
: "Why would an ASP, VB6, or C++ programmer learn ASP.NET after Microsoft
: had yanked from the market the development tools that he or she had
: spent years learning, working in, and making a living with?"
:
: The answer to these questions is, of course, for any rational person
: "They would not."
:
: Good Luck,
: Michael D. Kersey
:

[Michael D. Kersey]

Ken Schaefer wrote:

> Because the world has moved on. There are a new set of challenges that
> require a new set of tools.

No, the problems are the same. The only new challenges are those
(phantom problems) that Microsoft has erected:

Microsoft is like a psychologist who sets up hurdles and then, as the
patient (and any developer who relies on MSFT is indeed insane) jumps
over them one by one, points out the progress they've made.

As for Web Services and associated technologies: many existed prior to
ASP.NET, even prior to the institution of the W3C working groups on Web
Services and XML. They've always been accessible using de facto
standards such as Perl/Apache. Just because Microsoft has written
wrappers around them and now _sells_ them does not validate them.

> Developers have been demanding these. And
> Microsoft needs to try and deliver.

Sorry, what developer survey were you referring to? Which developers,
other than Microsoft's, were clamoring for ASP.NET?

> The same reason Microsoft developed Windows NT. Or Active Directory. Or the
> upcoming Yukon.

Such sweet memories!8-))
Yes, so clearly I remember the outcry for NT (which Microsoft derides
even today as buggy) and the long-awaited arrival of Active Directory
(which should have been LDAP, but was instead a Microsoft proprietary
standard). Today I hear developers crying for Yukon every time I enter a
newsgroup: "I want my Yukon", they shout to the rooftops, "If I only had
Yukon, my life would be complete and I could develop my killer app, but
alas, I must wait for my dear Yukon!" Give me a break!

Some developers, who shall remain nameless, have a problem in that they
both _buy_and_sell_ the MSFT marketing hook, line and sinker. In these
newsgroups they broaden the discussion until it is meaningless and
especially _say_nothing_interesting_. So they'll forgive me if I don't
respond to any more of their posts.

Good Luck,
Michael D. Kersey

[Jeff Clark]

Micheal:
I posed the original question. I knew there was something in it that I
could not quite articulate.
I wholeheartedly agree with what you've said, and thank you for fleshing
each topic out.

I like the part about how developers spent years paying loyalty royalties to
Mircosoft via ASP, only to have the rug pulled out from under us.

I agree that much of this whole thing is an artificial reselling of the same
old thing all over again in a new language.
Describe the same old world, but this time in French. Give up the Pig Latin
we sold you last year.

ASP.NEt is less like ASP than anything else out there, despite the
salesmen's claims. It is not less code.

I could go on , but you say it so well.



"Michael D. Kersey" <mdkersey@hal-pc.org> wrote in message
news:%238BtGxQhDHA.1800@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

> Ken Schaefer wrote:
>

> > Because the world has moved on. There are a new set of challenges that
> > require a new set of tools.

>
> No, the problems are the same. The only new challenges are those
> (phantom problems) that Microsoft has erected:
>
> Microsoft is like a psychologist who sets up hurdles and then, as the
> patient (and any developer who relies on MSFT is indeed insane) jumps
> over them one by one, points out the progress they've made.
>
> As for Web Services and associated technologies: many existed prior to
> ASP.NET, even prior to the institution of the W3C working groups on Web
> Services and XML. They've always been accessible using de facto
> standards such as Perl/Apache. Just because Microsoft has written
> wrappers around them and now _sells_ them does not validate them.
>

> > Developers have been demanding these. And
> > Microsoft needs to try and deliver.

>
> Sorry, what developer survey were you referring to? Which developers,
> other than Microsoft's, were clamoring for ASP.NET?
>

> > The same reason Microsoft developed Windows NT. Or Active Directory. Or

the

> > upcoming Yukon.

>
> Such sweet memories!8-))
> Yes, so clearly I remember the outcry for NT (which Microsoft derides
> even today as buggy) and the long-awaited arrival of Active Directory
> (which should have been LDAP, but was instead a Microsoft proprietary
> standard). Today I hear developers crying for Yukon every time I enter a
> newsgroup: "I want my Yukon", they shout to the rooftops, "If I only had
> Yukon, my life would be complete and I could develop my killer app, but
> alas, I must wait for my dear Yukon!" Give me a break!
>
> Some developers, who shall remain nameless, have a problem in that they
> both _buy_and_sell_ the MSFT marketing hook, line and sinker. In these
> newsgroups they broaden the discussion until it is meaningless and
> especially _say_nothing_interesting_. So they'll forgive me if I don't
> respond to any more of their posts.
>
> Good Luck,
> Michael D. Kersey
>

[tom]

"Michael D. Kersey" <mdkersey@hal-pc.org> wrote in message news:<ObLi6kPhDHA.3272@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl>...

> Ah, but the real questions is "Why would anyone learn ASP.NET when
> instead they could learn to use the incredibly complete, beautiful and
> well-documented Perl CPAN libraries at [url]http://search.cpan.org/[/url] and by
> studying Perl for only an hour at
> [url]http://www.ebb.org/PickingUpPerl/pickingUpPerl.html[/url] or at
> http://www.sthomas.net/roberts-perl-tutorial.htm" and when Perl is
> freely available at [url]http://www.perl.org/[/url] and the Apache Web server is
> freely available at [url]http://www.apache.org/[/url] (click on "httpd server" on
> the left).

CPAN's module search site [url]http://search.cpan.org/[/url] has been swamped by
the great sucking sound of former Microsoft developers rushing to Perl
and away from ASP.NET (and simultaneous release of a new Perl version
5.8.1).

Visit CPAN's main site at [url]http://www.cpan.org/[/url] to locate a CPAN mirror
near you.

There are currently 238 CPAN mirrors around the World. There are 121
mirrors in Europe, 32 in Asia, 4 in Africa, 6 in Oceania, and 75 in
the Americas.

Perl awaits your command.