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Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down - - Mac Networking

Wild Statements About Netopia R-Series Routers - The default router address of 192.168.1.1 which is assigned to all Netopia R-Series routers is in the "private" range of IP addresses. That means a computer on the Internet can't make 'initial' contact to the router itself. If it can't connect to the router, then it has no chance of connecting to the local computer 'behind' the router. if the "Outside-Internet-Computer" tries to establish the _initial_ _contact_ between itself and the router at the router's address of 192.168.1.1 then it won't work. Just for beginners, the outside computer is blind to any address ...

  1. #1

    Default Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down -

    Wild Statements About Netopia R-Series Routers -

    The default router address of 192.168.1.1 which is assigned to all
    Netopia R-Series routers is in the "private" range of IP addresses.

    That means a computer on the Internet can't make 'initial' contact to
    the router itself. If it can't connect to the router, then it has no
    chance of connecting to the local computer 'behind' the router.

    if the "Outside-Internet-Computer" tries to establish the _initial_
    _contact_ between itself and the router at the router's address of
    192.168.1.1 then it won't work.

    Just for beginners, the outside computer is blind to any address in the
    private address ranges, and our handy-dandy router has a private
    address of 192.168.1.1

    So what actually happens is that the local computer, the one 'behind'
    the router, _has_ to make the _initial_ connection between the two
    computers.

    That can be done.

    Once connection is established, then, and only then, two-way traffic
    can be transmitted between the two computers.

    Naturally, I have book references for all the above wild statements.

    Shoot me down <g>

    Mark-
    Mark Conrad Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down -

    In article <050720031726338510%nospamiam.invalid>,
    Mark Conrad <nospamiam.invalid> wrote:

    .... looks okay to me
    > Once connection is established, then, and only then, two-way traffic
    > can be transmitted between the two computers.
    True, except the router also has an outside IP address (the one assigned
    by your ISP). If someone on the Internet tries to connect to the
    router's IP address that was assigned to it by your ISP (not the
    192.168.1.1 address), and you've configured your router to forward
    incoming traffic on that port to one of the private machines, then an
    outside computer can make the initial connection.

    A router basically connects two networks. You have a home network of
    192.168.1.0, and then your ISP has its own network that has its own
    routers that connect with other parts of the Internet, blah blah. Your
    router has two IP addresses, one on each network.

    The main reason that outside computers can't reach your inside computer
    is because the computers on the other side are private addresses. You
    really only have one internet address being shared between all of the
    private computers. But that one internet address can be used for
    incoming traffic if you open the appropriate ports. For example, I have
    a web server running on my G3 behind a router, so port 80 is forwarded
    to that machine. I have identd running on this iMac, so port 113 is
    forwarded to it. And so on...

    This is to the best of my knowledge, anyway! :-)

    Doug

    --
    Doug Brown - La Grande, OR
    Idiot's Guide to Mac Cases - [url]http://www.ircandy.com/maccases/[/url]
    If you want to reply by email, remove "pleasenospam." and ".invalid"
    Doug Brown Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down -

    In article <050720031726338510%nospamiam.invalid>,
    Mark Conrad <nospamiam.invalid> wrote:
    > Wild Statements About Netopia R-Series Routers -
    >
    > The default router address of 192.168.1.1 which is assigned to all
    > Netopia R-Series routers is in the "private" range of IP addresses.
    >
    > That means a computer on the Internet can't make 'initial' contact to
    > the router itself. If it can't connect to the router, then it has no
    > chance of connecting to the local computer 'behind' the router.
    >
    Every router has (at least) two IP address -- one seen by the outside
    world, and one for the local net. Ths 192.x.x.x address is for the
    local lan. You have to tell it what the outside (world-visible) address
    is. Often that is set by DHCP from your broadband ISP.
    fishfry Guest

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down -

    In article <fishfry-5E7BF5.20501005072003netnews.attbi.com>,
    fishfry <fishfryyour-mailbox.com> wrote:
    > Every router has (at least) two IP address -- one seen by the outside
    > world, and one for the local net. Ths 192.x.x.x address is for the
    > local lan. You have to tell it what the outside (world-visible) address
    > is. Often that is set by DHCP from your broadband ISP.
    I think the point the OP was trying to make is,
    you can't set the outside, or "world" IP nr from the outside if the
    vendor has set the default to 192.x.x.x

    IOW you must make contact with the router from the inside (not a bad
    thing security-wise) and configure it with a known good IPnr, or to get
    it DHCP from a known good ISP. It's this part that often crumbles to
    dust between the hands of trans-Pacific tech manual translators and
    network neophytes...
    Peter KERR Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down -

    In article <060720032104374835%nospamiam.invalid>,
    Mark Conrad <nospamiam.invalid> wrote:
    > In article <user-07F0AA.11172507072003scream.auckland.ac.nz>, Peter
    > KERR <userhost.domain> wrote:
    >
    > > > Every router has (at least) two IP address -- one seen by the outside
    > > > world, and one for the local net. Ths 192.x.x.x address is for the
    > > > local lan. You have to tell it what the outside (world-visible) address
    > > > is. Often that is set by DHCP from your broadband ISP.
    > >
    > > I think the point the OP was trying to make is,
    > > you can't set the outside, or "world" IP nr from the outside if the
    > > vendor has set the default to 192.x.x.x
    >
    > Absolutely correct, that is what I meant.
    >
    > I can't see any use for that default address of 192.168.1.1 that the
    > manufacturer assigns to the router itself.
    That is how you contact the router from within the local netword to
    configure it to suit your purposes (e.g. specify the ISP's parameters,
    local DHCP IP address range, ports to be forwarded, etc.)
    >
    > Unfortunately, all his instructions make heavy use of that default
    > address, which really confuses me.
    Of course it does; it's the only to pass configuration information to
    the router or to receive status information from it.
    >
    > If he intends that I replace the default "router address" with some
    > other address, he should say so in the instructions, IMHO.
    He doesn't, so he didn't.
    >
    > Also, nothing is mentioned in any of the instructions about where to
    > find a replacement address for the router's default address.
    >
    > Real barrel of snakes, as far as a first-time router user is concerned.
    >
    > Main problem remains how to get the configuration screens to stay
    > active after 60 seconds, the screens "lock-up" and won't respond to
    > keystroke navigation after exactly 60 seconds.
    > (up-arrow, down-arrow, 'return' keys, etc.)
    That's the only real problem. It sounds like the router is expecting
    some sort of user authentication (e.g. userID a/o password). Read the
    doentation that came with the router. As you read it, pretend that
    you don't know what to do and that the manual's author does.
    >
    > Tried all the obvious things, throwing away pref' files, trying
    > different telnet applications, even erasing disk and reloading OS-8.6
    >
    > Come Monday I will wait out the vendor's one-hour support line and ask
    > the tech's there if they have any idea what is causing the
    > configuration screens to lock-up after 60 seconds.
    >
    > Mark-
    --
    Tom Stiller

    PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
    7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF
    Tom Stiller Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down -

    In article
    <tomstiller-901DA8.07505407072003news.comcast.giganews.com>, Tom
    Stiller <tomstillercomcast.net> wrote:
    > > Main problem remains how to get the configuration screens to stay
    > > active after 60 seconds, the screens "lock-up" and won't respond to
    > > keystroke navigation after exactly 60 seconds.
    > > (up-arrow, down-arrow, 'return' keys, etc.)
    >
    > That's the only real problem. It sounds like the router is expecting
    > some sort of user authentication (e.g. userID a/o password). Read the
    > doentation that came with the router. As you read it, pretend that
    > you don't know what to do and that the manual's author does.
    Hi Tom, thanks for the reply. I just got off the phone with Netopia's
    router support section (again) and they don't know what is going on
    with this R2020 router either.
    > Read the doentation that came with the router.
    No recource there, Netopia no longer ships a CD with their R2020
    router, their tech' support section sez to download all the doc's from
    their Internet website, which I did already, along with every available
    "technote" that Netopia has at their website.

    According to the docs, and according to the lack-of-prompts on the
    router configuration screens, no default password is set.

    There is no "user manual" per se, just those random collection of
    Internet docs and technotes at their website.

    When I was on the phone to Netopia today, I made the mistake of telling
    them than one of the versions of telnet that I tried (NCSA or NSCA
    version 2.6) - produced an error message:

    "Mac TCP Release Failed"

    They pounced on that like a bird on a June bug, and said the problem
    must be with the Mac itself, not their router.<g>

    All their docs mention that telnet itself will work with OSs as old as
    OS7 - - - I originally bought this router May of 2002.

    Right now, I am using the latest version of "MacTelnet", the 60-second
    lockup problem still persists, but with no error message on this
    particular brand of telnet.

    If one goes to the Netopia website, the same router is sold today.

    I tried reloading OS 8.6 into a different partition, but the 60-second
    lockup problem follows me there.

    My last remaining recourse is to try to telnet from OS X.

    If that does not work, I will junk this $650 router and look around for
    a different brand of router, hopefully one that has good Mac tech'
    support if I get into trouble configuring it on the 'advanced' features
    of the router.

    I really need a router aimed at slow telephone dialup connections,
    which the R2020 was designed for. (supposedly) - - - with all the
    _other_ bells and whistles because I will mainly be using the router
    with Timbuktu-equipped computers, which need all the help they can get
    from the router, due to security considerations.

    One thing for certain, I will make sure my next router can be
    configured with a browser, instead of telnet.


    > > I can't see any use for that default address of 192.168.1.1 that the
    > > manufacturer assigns to the router itself.
    >
    > That is how you contact the router from within the local netword to
    > configure it to suit your purposes (e.g. specify the ISP's parameters,
    > local DHCP IP address range, ports to be forwarded, etc.)
    - - - and - - -
    > > Unfortunately, all his instructions make heavy use of that default
    > > address, which really confuses me.
    >
    > Of course it does; it's the only to pass configuration information to
    > the router or to receive status information from it.

    That information really helps me Tom, thanks. Insights like that are
    completely missing from the online doentation.

    Back to the battle -

    Mark-
    Mark Conrad Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down -

    In article <070720030934106230%nospamiam.invalid>,
    Mark Conrad <nospamiam.invalid> wrote:
    > If that does not work, I will junk this $650 router and look around for
    > a different brand of router, hopefully one that has good Mac tech'
    > support if I get into trouble configuring it on the 'advanced' features
    > of the router.
    The D-Link DI-604 costs thirty or forty bucks, works like a charm with
    the Mac.
    fishfry Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down -

    In article
    <tomstiller-901DA8.07505407072003news.comcast.giganews.com>, Tom
    Stiller <tomstillercomcast.net> wrote: Lotsa good tips -


    Just a followup post, I tried a different computer, a different OS
    (OS-X) - and did my telnet from Terminal.

    Same thing happened, configuration screens were active for 59-seconds,
    could navigate all over the place.

    At promptly 60 seconds, screens froze up and would no longer respond to
    keyboard, just like when I was using OS 8.6 on a different computer.

    I had to force-quit Terminal.

    That test was my last resort, Netopia tech' support won't help me,
    mainly because of my charming personality.

    Looks like I will have to junk the $650 Netopia router, abd look around
    for a different brand that supports slow dialup connection.

    Mark-
    Mark Conrad Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down -

    In article <050720031726338510%nospamiam.invalid>,
    Mark Conrad <nospamiam.invalid> wrote:
    > Wild Statements About Netopia R-Series Routers -
    >
    > The default router address of 192.168.1.1 which is assigned to all
    > Netopia R-Series routers is in the "private" range of IP addresses.
    >
    > That means a computer on the Internet can't make 'initial' contact to
    > the router itself. If it can't connect to the router, then it has no
    > chance of connecting to the local computer 'behind' the router.
    >
    > if the "Outside-Internet-Computer" tries to establish the _initial_
    > _contact_ between itself and the router at the router's address of
    > 192.168.1.1 then it won't work.
    >
    > Just for beginners, the outside computer is blind to any address in the
    > private address ranges, and our handy-dandy router has a private
    > address of 192.168.1.1
    >
    > So what actually happens is that the local computer, the one 'behind'
    > the router, _has_ to make the _initial_ connection between the two
    > computers.
    >
    > That can be done.
    >
    > Once connection is established, then, and only then, two-way traffic
    > can be transmitted between the two computers.
    >
    > Naturally, I have book references for all the above wild statements.
    >
    > Shoot me down <g>
    >
    > Mark-
    You also have an external IP address assigned by your ISP. Your router
    has two different interfaces & two different IP addresses. The
    192.168.x.x address (for D-Link it's 192.168.0.1) is seen on the LAN
    side, while a real routable IP address is seen on the WAN side, so your
    router can be accessed from the outside by that address.

    --
    Mike Cohen - mike3k <at> onepost <dot> net
    Personal: [url]http://www.mc-development.com/[/url]
    Mac News: [url]http://www.macmegasite.com/[/url]

    Mike Cohen Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down -

    Mark Conrad <nospamiam.invalid> wrote:
    > In article <fishfry-E3A3C6.13080907072003netnews.attbi.com>, fishfry
    > <fishfryyour-mailbox.com> wrote:
    >
    > > The D-Link DI-604 costs thirty or forty bucks, works like a charm with
    > > the Mac.
    >
    > Thanks, I will buy it as a temporary fix - hope it works for a slow
    > telephone dialup connection.
    The D-Link DI-604 has neither a modem nor a serial port. It is a plain
    Ethernet-to-Ethernet router with a four-port switch built-in. That's it.

    > The Netopia R2020 is specifically aimed at slow dialup (supposedly).
    >
    > Two internal modems allow throughput of 112k, plus a third modem can be
    > added to the mix.
    >
    > I really feel I need the advanced features of the higher priced
    > routers, given that I will be using extended local and distant networks
    > and servers in my local network and Timbuktu software on all the
    > computers involved.
    >
    > Finding a good router with excellent Mac support for configuring the
    > advanced features might be a big problem.
    >
    > Netopia makes great remote-control software, I have been using it for
    > years, however their support of their hardware routers leaves much to
    > be desired.
    >
    > I won't even consider a Netopia router, after the ing they gave me.
    Which is a shame, considering that (IIRC) the Netopia brand name had its
    origin with Farallon, which specialized in Mac networking hardware.
    Neill Massello Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down -

    On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:59:48 GMT,
    Neill Massello (nmasselloearthlink.net) wrote:
    >> I won't even consider a Netopia router, after the ing they gave me.
    >
    > Which is a shame, considering that (IIRC) the Netopia brand name had its
    > origin with Farallon, which specialized in Mac networking hardware.
    I think that Netopia had its origin with Cayman -- which also specialized
    in Mac networking hardware (remember Cayman Gatorboxes?). I think that
    Farallon became Proxim.

    Take care,
    Bev
    --
    Bev A. Kupf
    Bev's House of Pancakes
    Bev A. Kupf Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: Wild Router Statements, Shoot Me Down -

    In article
    <mike3k_NOSPAM-7D020E.20080107072003newsgroups.bellsouth.net>, Mike
    Cohen <mike3k_NOSPAMsuespammers.org> wrote:
    > You also have an external IP address assigned by your ISP. Your router
    > has two different interfaces & two different IP addresses.
    Yes, Tom Stiller informed me of that in his post to me, I was not aware
    of it until then.

    > The 192.168.x.x address (for D-Link it's 192.168.0.1) is seen
    > on the LAN side...<clipped>...
    Docs for my R2020 say all these R-Series of routers have a default LAN
    side router address of 192.168.1.1

    > ...<clipped>...on the LAN side, while a real routable IP address is seen
    > on the WAN side, so your router can be accessed from the outside
    > by that address.
    Yes, with OS X the real routable IP address actually appears in the
    "Network" settings after a few seconds, (TCP/IP tab) - - - it was
    192.168.1.102 in one instance.

    Do you happen to know _which_ DHCP software server sets that?

    Is it the one in the OS X operating system, or the one in the router
    itself. (I would guess the router)

    Mark-
    Mark Conrad Guest

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